Very nice write up, I pretty much agree with all that you said, but you said a lot so I might of missed something.
I’m not one to judge on spelling errors (not that hypocritical)
Played a bit of orendi so I don’t profess to be a pro or anything. That said it sounds like you took issue with 3/10 of the abilities - that’s a 70%, an argument could’ve made that levels 3 and 4 are a crucial time in pvp maps deciding your build and that this feels like there’s only one choice. I’ll weight it in favor of this argument.
So I’ve faced off against plenty of orendi and been hit by the damage over time before the blast. In some cases it was an early warning sign, in others it finished off that last clip of health. I used the damage over time one myself as I felt the attack already cools down very quickly with certain traits and load outs and I figured some damage was better than none at all.
The second issue with the choice of direction after nullify isn’t too bad of a choice. In some cases it is better to have the follow up and stay sticky to the enemy in others the nullifies effects are so easily understood that most folks start predicting where orendi is based on its use. It’s like a big neon sign to come thump her on the skull. Changing direction of following up seems pretty reasonable and would help to decide your play style a bit.
Keep in mind, perhaps the answer to a skill being so heavily favored over the others requires a nerf to that powerful ability and not a boost to the other skills.
I’m glad to see other folks just as passionate about their favorite characters as I am!
I am on the fence between DOT and a second pillar, I don’t like the middle option. I have noticed that the DOT seems to have a good range and both options seem pretty equal to me. The -50% damage is a big hit so I’ve stayed away from that.
A logical, albeit self serving, explaination. There have already been nerfs to specific skills. The - made it this far argument for an op skill is like having a bank error in your favor and saying well they’re the bank they’ve gotta know what’s what when it comes to money. And I’m not claiming any skill is op.
What do you think about nullify- dash toward for stickiness on running enemies or direction change to position them better?
How about the dot use vs the second pillar at half?
You bring up a lot of good points; I played enough Orendi to understand what you’re saying.
“Let’s Bounce” Is not just an option for Console gamers to choose when they can’t “run away” correctly due to lack of turning speed, it’s also an option to help Orendi reach certain areas that she wouldn’t be able to otherwise. Jumping forward and using Nullify with a “Let’s Bounce” upgrade will let Orendi jump forward much higher/faster and be able to reach ledges and platforms easier. Since I was a big speaker towards how squishy I felt Orendi is, I always end up taking the “Oh that reminds me” option, proccing your shields to start regenerating can be VERY helpful in not dying.
I find the mutation on 3 to be a bit “meh”. I do really like the secondary attack A LOT. It has been greatly improved since the CTT (It is much faster now than what it was back then). But I think you shouldn’t worry about enemies dodging the attack if you use the secondary correctly…don’t understand the thought behind homing bolts.
Option 4 is THE most important Helix level for Orendi, it is where her DPS is defined. I usually go for Double Pillar since I almost exclusively play Orendi as a wave clearer. Having 2 pillars helps clear minions and enemies pretty easily. DoT would be the 2nd best choice since you’ll get some guaranteed damage most of the time even if they dodge the SP blast. Can help snipe a fleeing enemy if used properly. Instant Gratification has the ability to be good, especially with the Mutation on 10 (and that’s why I think the devs were scared to not put a drawback on it)…but 50% Is waaaaaaaaaaay too much loss of damage. That’s 100% damage you’re missing out on if you would have chosen Double Pillar. That’s HUGE. I would suggest it be 20% Damage reduction 25% at worst.
and finally for helix 6…Nullify’s damage buff should be increased. 9/10 you will always want to buff your Pillars since it’s your main source of damage. 20-25% damage buff on Nullify for that helix option would be cool.
Also, they added a blind on top of the knockback? NICE. Orendi I think is the only Hero atm that has Mass BLINDS.
Overall I think Orendi is really well designed to what she is meant to do. She just has to have some numbers VERY SLIGHTLY tweaked and she’ll be perfect.
So I mained Miko in the beta but I did play a few games as Orendi and I completely see where you are coming from with this post. Regarding points 3, 4, and 6:
3 - I also almost exclusively chose the far right option, because as you mentioned Orendi’s secondary attack just didn’t really seem worth the trouble using over her primary, but depending on what constitutes as “close range” that middle modifier option may be a viable choice for Orendi players who prefer to be up close and personal. I also agree that a small range increase to the Nullify movement would make the left option much more viable.
4 - This one is really tricky. The time that it takes to cast an SFP can make hitting a battleborn with it difficult, which is what seems to make the middle modifier option so enticing because instant SFPs would fix that but 50% does seem to be a little extreme, I think changing it to around 33% less damage would fix it perfectly. I believe that the radius of the dot is a bit larger than that of the actual SFP, if not though then either slightly increasing the radius or damage of the dot would probably bring it up to par with the 2nd SFP option.
6 - 100% agreement. Why anyone would choose the left option when SFP has both more range and more base damage is beyond me, unless they are just have a really hard time landing hits with the SFP, because it can be a bit tricky especially if you are trying to hit a lone battleborn. I think increasing the left option to 20-25% would make it less of a no-brainer.
That’s my two cents on it, and excellent post btw, I hope the devs give this a look because you obviously took your time with it.
I played allot of Orendi in the beta and i agree with almost everything you said, especially about the secondary.
I think that the secondary attack should be changed in a way that allows players to charge it (for a significantly higher damage), similar to toby’s railgun. This would also make the lvl 3 mutation better because you wouldn’t want to miss a powerful attack that also required you to spend a good few seconds charging before using it. It would also gives the secondary a different purpose, making it more useful than the primary in different scenarios.
The 50% decrease on the instant activation mutation is to much imo and should be 25% max.
The double pillar upgrade is a no brainer imo because the damage potential (considering upgrades to SFP through helix) is much higher. i think they should make it similar to Oscar mike’s DoT upgarde to his grenade. Maybe 60 damage per second for 5 seconds? It would increase SFP effectiveness as a wave clearing ability.
I also agree about the lvl 6 option but i think that simply raising the damage boost won’t fix it, since nullify was always a utility tool and not a damage dealing skill. I think it should be replaced with another utility skill but a much more offensive one so it would keep the skill spirit. for example: for x seconds after being hit by nullify enemies will receive increased damage from y.
Besides this three things i think that Orendi is one of the better designed characters in this game and definitely a favorite of mine.
What about making the 6th Helix Choice Add Silence for 3 Seconds to Nullify (Instead of the Damage it is now) vs 15% Damage to SFP?
That seems much more meaningful to me.
Since Nullify is a Utility / Position, Silence would enhance that by preventing your Target’s Counter / Escape for your setup, or give you time to Escape, especially combined with the Knockback.
Also I have less an issue with the -50% on Instant SFP than most, since it seems the reason for it is to change SFP from a Wave Clear tool to a Finisher. Even at -50%, it does enough damage to spike someone and finish them in a surprising way.
Oh, to clarify, I’m not saying that SFP actually works any particular way, I’m just suggesting what may have been the intent.
Taking a look at the way SFP works out of the tin, it has a huge visual indicator and a delay before effect. That tells me the damage from it isn’t intended to be used against Players, except situationally, like when you can corner or knock them in to the AoE, or when they can be stunned first to keep them around long enough for the effect to happen. Instead that high damage, on a delay and with an obvious visual cue, is usually a deterrent for a Player (Stay away or pay the price!) or more effectively used on something that has predictable movement, or no movement, like minions, lieutenants, bosses, thralls, etc… or even turrets. Players are usually going to avoid the bulk of SFP’s damage if they possibly can though, and they’ll probably be pretty successful in doing so since all it takes is avoiding the “bad area.” It can bait out Escapes however, and that is a good thing.
As you’ve pointed out yourself however, the instant SFP trades a very sizable loss in damage for the instant application of the effect. You also point out that it seems a poor trade off, since you can’t capitalize on the instant effect as an Alpha Strike or Opener because the damage has been reduced below a level that is helpful for an Alpha Strike or Opener (Pick your term). If you tried to use it that way the Player would mostly shrug it off. And I agree, it’s really ineffective for that use.
The point of my post was to point out that the rationale may not have been for Instant SFP to be an Alpha Strike or Opener at all, but as a Finisher. At 10 an SFP would normally hit for about 650 damage. If you go the instant SFP route, you’d still be looking at an instant source of ~300 damage. That’s a good spike, and can catch a player off guard, maybe even helping you finish them. For instance, consider using this against an Ambra before their Fire Shield procs. It could be the difference between a fleeing Ambra and a dead Ambra. =)
Hitting most characters for ~300 when they’re low enough for it to count, but before they resort to an escape, could put them off balance enough to allow you to finish them, if it doesn’t finish them outright. Consider a situation where a team is applying pressure to a hard target that might otherwise be about to cut and run; that damage could wrap up that encounter suddenly instead.
I’m not saying I’ve done this personally nor that it actually works this way, this is pure theory-craft here. But I can see how they might have intended it to be used in this way, which is somewhat different from how SFP is normally used. And it might explain how we ended up with this “meaningful choice” in the first place, for good or for ill. Interestingly I’d like to test this theory and see if this can be applied, making this mutation effective… I can’t wait for this game to release!
As for how I use SFP, it’s to distribute damage among groups of minions, or stack damage on tougher targets. I usually pick up the DoT for that reason, as a group of minions picks up a lot of damage off of the DoT. When Players see those 3 rings go up though, they go around! So in those situations I find it’s better to control the shape of the battle with SFP than to try to get damage out there with it. If I need an Alpha Strike, then that’s what Paradigm Shift is for. =)
I did try the instant SFP once, but it didn’t match my play style as I tend to prefer control and disruption over DPS anyway. It’s one reason I love playing Orendi! So I’m in no way an instant SFP expert. I also probably use SFP differently than you do.
Finally, regarding what I do use for damage, it’s usually just the regular attacks (Chaos Bolts) and not skills. I use both the primary and secondary attacks. I actually rack up a ton of secondary damage because I use the auto target mutation as well. From afar I’ll open with one secondary attack, which reveals my position, and then close in using the primary, switching back to secondary when in auto target range. Orendi is listed as an Agile type character, which she very much is! I use that to stay close enough to keep pressure on with the auto targeting secondary, but prevent full engagement by juking and moving a lot avoiding the enemy and their fire. Push back and jumping around from Nullify plus healing off of Skill damage like from Nullify and SFP DoTs helps with that style too. The auto targeting is really great for this, because my damage is guaranteed even when I’m not targeting my opponent as I move about. Orendi’s a small, moving target to hit, so it can be quite effective. And it can be very disruptive. YMMV. =)
Excellent write-up, and worth some consideration. Let me address one of the recent edits, though…
Don’t put too much stock into my use of the word “Throwaway”. We never intentionally design useless abilities. Every ability is tested, and put through rigors of testing and design philosophy to try to make it an interesting option. In fact, we watch through data which helix options are picked and which are not and revisit them from time to time to change infrequently picked helix options so that they can feel more valuable.
That said, consider this:
Each of our characters has 7 use-based abilities (including jump and quick melee which are unique per character) + 20 Augmentations + 5 Mutations. So, 32 different “skills” to look at and caretake alongside statistical adjustments. 32 x 25 = 800 major points of tuning to track and keep balanced, many of those which are interleaved (so changing one necessiatates changing multiple).
(I’m not trying to excuse us, by the way. Just trying to help us all keep the complexity in mind as we discuss speed and breadth of change. )
So, if a designer looked at one of these a day, it would take over 2 years to look at them all. Fortunately, we have more than one designer, and most of the choices are pretty sound. But there are issues, of course.
As you might imagine, designing the Helixes for 25+ characters and keeping them all unique and balanced is a chore. And, we try to find different combinations in what you can do. Sometimes, this results in some helix choices seeming to be “throwaway”…or “non-choices” at first glance. But that’s okay with us. One thing we’ve learned over time is that with a game full of interesting ways to combine growth, advancement, and gear, the non-choices often have interesting discoverise lurking within them. Some of those were intentional by the designer, some of those surprising.
So. Whew. Sorry. Lots of words there!
All that to say, again, we don’t make “throwaway” abilities. But the game is complex enough that our design team debates as much as the forums about the usefulness of some abilities over others, and are sometimes surprised by interesting combinations. That was certainly the case with the Orendi homing build I’ve been playing with. (Which doesn’t seem as effective in PvP as I’d hoped, but still tweaking it.)
We will certainly look at this (and other) bits of feedback for ideas on where to take characters as we grow the game. Those changes probably won’t ever happen the week after you post.
Good cover. I pretty much build my orendi on most points u said. Only mutator I use is the Helix Level 10 one. Nullify is pretty much get out of a bad situation quick and I use the knockback on level 2 to get melee’s out of my face while also retreating. Blinding is that great in this game so I never rely on it. Helps a lot when I can knock back rath during his ult and get away so it barely his me.
I loved this set of points, and it really did open my eyes on Encore should you set it to quickcast. That said, however, the point 3 for Nullify, as I think it was stated before in this thread, the utility it provides is unparalleled in that you can use it in any direction you travel in.
If you’re in a jump and you’ve worked with it before, you can adjust the jump arc with Nullify, launching yourself in virtually any direction provided by your jump arc to make it higher, longer, or a medium between the two. Another thing that I’ve tested is that if you jump towards an enemy and refrain from pressing any direction, your nullify will bounce you backward (as the default does). It allows a lot more utility and if you have a decent premade that’s ready to protect you should you get caught out, the utility is really all you should need.