Pain is Power discussion

So I decided to do something actually useful with this thread, rather than just having it sit here being unreadable, so here we go.

There’s nothing really new here, it’s just consolidated and actually legible

But first some background:

The results from some testing:

This spreadsheet is kinda hard to read, but the long and short of it is that the on-fire bonus is added to the base bonus (meaning, both the gun damage and the crit penalty get the on fire bonus).


@Chuck80’s crit damage formula:

To look at it from a multiplier standpoint rather than numerical:

Assuming we have 5 points in PiP:
+25% gun damage
-25% crit damage
+50% on fire bonus

Damage formulas and net multipliers:
non-crit, no fire:

Crit, no fire:

non-crit, fire

Crit, fire:

An important point to remember is that because the gun damage stacks additively with other sources of gun damage (notably Blood Bath) while the crit penalty is multiplicative. So PiP will decrease your crit damage, on a reletive basis, when you have gun damage from a source other than PiP (BB or BAR) additionaly, the type C crit from ARs will add with the crit penalty. However, PiP does not effect the way Type A or B crit damage modify your damage because all 4 of the bonuses involved multiply with each other.

This chart demonstrates the relationship between PiP and BB on critical hits (values in the chart are the net multipliers assuming nothing else is effecting the damage):

While most of this post has been about the Gun part of PiP, as @Maveco pointed out, the Crit penalty also applies to melee, so the same math also applies there. Yet another reason to not take PiP in melee builds…

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I don’t understand your table so in plain language what did you expect and what are you seeing?

Thought I would add my own data, level 8 is the cut off according to my numbers. [Build used][1].

[Edit] Oh darn forgot to turn BAR off, shouldn’t really matter though I think.

Baicly, I’m getting somewhat higher damage than I expected, even with just the basic, not on-fire, not criting, shots.

So we’re finally going to crack the PiP question?


I always thought PiP was like the RNG. We always assumed it is there, but still allot it’s functions to a merciless deity who sits up high on Pandora and rarely doles out favor.

Thats what I’m thinking based on what I’ve got so far, we’ll see when I put togather a better test later today i guess.

Hey guys! sorry this took so long I was busy being a bum :sweat:
Anyway, here are the results from my test:

Basicaly, when you are on fire, the “on fire bonus” is added to both the damage modifier and crit modifier.

TL;DR: >7 PiP reduces your crit damage below your non-crit damage on all weapons that don’t have a built in crit modifier.

Note: if you saw this before I edited it, disregard what you read.

I’m not trying to be a dick but this was pretty common knowledge regarding the mechanics of the on fire bonus. I’m glad that you have the numbers though as it will help others see how PiP works.

I always read it as the bonus is replaced by the “on fire” bonus (which was twice the initial), and on the DDD skill guide it says:

implying a similar interpretation.

So mabye common knowlage for you, but not all of us :wink:

Also, part of the reason I did this was so that we actually had documentation since it was lost in the transfer.

What does it do to the Ladyfist? Curiosity calls.

The lady fist is the last 2 groups, it has 800% type A crit right? Kind of amusing if you asked me…

I also added ARs (the middle 2 groups) in case anyone was wondering.

EDIT: I could upload this spreadsheet somewhere if anybody wants to play with it, but I’m lazy, so I’m only going to do it if someone asks.

Wow, this skill is so weird. Nice though and I would certainly be curious to see more although it’d probably be more of the same judging from what I thought’d be an extreme case.

Yeah, the only thing I haven’t looked at is type B crit, that might change things, but we’ll have to see. I’ll clean the sheet up and put it on dropbox in a bit.

The bottom non-crit row for the Pip 6 column, that is mean to be 225, yeah?

Probably, nice catch.

Ahh, gotcha. Cheers.

I’ll double check and update a little later

Updated the OP for redability, hopefully it’s actually useful now.