Patch 2.0 - Reactions!

Thanks, I didn’t see those notes and didn’t know MP was already balanced like that. After losing some matches with Kushan I searched for tips and I found some outdated requests and posts (now I get they were from BEFORE the tweaks) saying that one should not play Kushan nor Taiidan because they were Underpowered in comparison…
I guess then it was me playing bad and I need to get some more practice ^^

Nice job updating already today, im gonna test right away!

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Just played a game as Vaygr vs AI HW1 Kush, and I think my bombers were bugged out when attacking the mothership. After the first pass only 1 bomber in the squad would shoot on subsequent passes.

They had the increased speed unlocked, I used the default formations, and tried setting the stances from Aggressive to Normal to Evasive and no change; still only one bomber in the squad would attack when making a run. This basically resulted in the DPS being almost non existent.

Anyone else noticing this?

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Yap I observed the exact same thing on my Taiidan Squads. It seems as if formations are not always working as intended although I didn’t know that it’s also happening on standard Hw2 formations.

Judging how units behave I’d say it’s due to their sometimes weird approach vectors not giving themselves enough time to fire and aim or a more likely scenario some blackout within the executing firing script at the time. At the moment at least in multiplayer: Formations are rather suicidal than beneficial. Due to that and due to the fact that they all target at 1 ship and miss more than they hit. While lose ships or hw2 squads usually seem to hit in their known professional fashion and aim at many ships instead just a few.

On the topic of frigates vs destroyers and BCs, I think the current balance is good. The anti-capital frigates (e.g. ion cannon frigates) should do well vs destroyers and BCs but the latter has HP advantage so if the player with them can micro well to keep them alive then he/she will have an advantage.

Also I think a good RTS should have a good variety of units with a good countering system. This makes a good battle going back and forth as the players adjust and build counters to each other’s units. Thus making strong BCs or a Titan unit goes against this and makes the game boring – in 1v1 it would be “who makes BCs/Titan first” and in team games, make 1v2 impossible (2 Titans beats 1 Titan, period).

I will say that balancing was done by gearbox with input from many players. I easily dumped 500 to 1000 hours into the balance testing effort over the last year. Homeworld is my favorite video game series, and you could say I know a thing or two about how to play:

While I haven’t played online much lately as I’ve been focused on balance testing, GhostRider can attest that I can handily brush off the rust and whoop some ass in hw2c, HWR Beta, and now HWR 2.1. :wink:

I few comments:

Constructive feedback is always welcome and desired. Heck, I even read and think through the non-constructive feedback…

Balistics, stances and formations are in. Those are HUGE changes that open up a lot of micro potential for fighters/corvettes. If your not having success, you probably haven’t spent nearly enough time playing with the new features - this stuff is going to take a while for the community to master. These changes have also made balancing a HUGE effort, and things may still need to be tweaked.

hw2 interceptors taking too long to kill hw2 modules concerns me. I noticed this earlier this year in testing, but it didn’t get changed. I’ll do some testing and suggest it be restored, its a simple fix.

I also plan to re-test hw2 interceptors vs hw2 frigs, plats and gunships, and compare the results vs HWR 1.3. Again, things may still need to be tweaked some.

70 hw2 interceptors will handily beat 70 hw1 scouts. hw1 and hw2 interceptors are balanced against each other (for fighters, aggressive claws of 5 tend to perform best).

Flaks tear up hw1 and hw2 fighters as they should (4 flaks will take out 70 hiig interceptors).

Hiig destroyer bullets visually move half as fast as they used to, but this only affects targeting fast moving ships like fighters/corvettes. Ballistics means an idle fighter is easy to hit, while a moving one is hard to hit.

Destroyers are unit capped at 5, as thats how they were unit capped in hw2c. BC’s are unit capped at 2 by popular demand. If you want more just select high unit caps. All unit cap levels are now balanced pretty good. While battlecruisers have been nerfed, they’ve also received huge upgrade cost reduction buffs.

[quote=“Xercodo, post:222, topic:1501936, full:true”]From what I understand the balancing efforts were very scientific, using “dev-hax” to spawn in handfuls of specific ships and running them at each other until the combat felt right for each ships’ intended role. Pretty simple.

At this point the balance is pretty close to where it’s intended aside from a few bugs resulting in weird flight patterns.
[/quote]
Well said.

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Yes, quite right.

Your comment reminds me of the Mass Effect: Reborn - Classic HW2 mod. In my experiences against the AI, I found that the entire mod boiled down to “build a dreadnought before anyone else, wreak havoc, win”. They’re just that powerful.

The ability to use profile color preferences in HW2:Remastered’s single-player campaign since patch 2.0 is really awesome! I’m glad that was added in.

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Did they all have the ‘attack’ icon in their ATI? I worry this was somehow related to distribution of the commands…

Hmm, I can’t say for certain if they had the ‘attack’ icon or not, but the attack was initiated with a direct right-click and not with them eventually wandering over (to speak), as I wanted to test the new damage of the bombers.

They traveled to the Mothership, unloaded a beastly barrage of bombs, then never did that again. Instead, only the lead ship in the pack would shoot a couple times on each subsequent run while the rest just flew along for the ride :frowning:

Hrm - okay. Will add it to the pile :wink:

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Just some issues I find important to remember or to take into account:

  • most of the dissatisfaction or disagreements relies around parameters in text files. It’s never been so easy to solve that via modding. It’s way way simpler than coding a mission or modelling and texturing. I’m not saying balancing is easy but it’s very accessible, pretty much anyone can mod that;
  • reinforcing the last argument, previously in HW2 classic, no one used to play HW2 classic skirmish anymore with the advent of Complex. So, it is possible to make a game with your own taste. If you really have good ideas it will become a standard or, at least, played a lot. Actually, HW was redeveloped by GBX with that aspect in mind;
  • no matter what the devs would have done with support of whatever group of fans, there will always be an Unabomber heavy player with its manifesto, so that really won’t impress or persuade, even if the arguments are strong. Better strategy is to avoid this stereotype;
  • Sorry, in the last years I have been in RelicNews and here in GBX forums and I’ve never heard about attack angles. All I read about was the forever war of RNGs x Real Phisics and a lot of whine because HW2’s game play was unpurposeful due to RNG’s. I’m not saying attack angles are wrong or irrelevant, but I am saying that I don’t know how they influence in a RNG scenario;
  • Platforms were useless and marines were weak in the classic version. If they stayed the same, they can’t be ruining anyone’s game play style;
  • Arguments about privileges for a group and exclusion of others is not reasonable and not fair with the attention given to the game and its community. Don’t remember how many times the devs were checking to see if anybody was left behind unanswered;
  • The apropriate place to influence the development, change the game and persuade people is here in the forums. Anyone absent or elsewhere can’t blame without being responsible themselves for all possible mistakes that might take place;
  • Anyone that is a part of a group that plays many hours of this game should step up and get noted. GBX is responsible for their investment, jobs and etc. The players are the ones responsible for the game. That’s how this game survived this far.
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Game just kicked me out of a 1v1 match saying “out of sync” :frowning:
I fear this appearing now and then randomly, could you verify the reason behind it please?

Sure… Lemme check that.

Yup – you were Out Of Sync.

Don’t worry, it happens to the best of us, sometimes.

Get back in there, look that fella in the eye, and try again!

image

No, but seriously, OOS in this engine is not that odd, it is a VERY complex simulation that has to be the same on all involved machines. With this patch we made it WAY less common - but I am certain it isn’t gone entirely…

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I can see why Blessed was so pissed now! lol Looks like all this stuff is indeed in need of attention. Average results of multiple tests are below.

70 Hiig Interceptors vs 10 Hiig Gunplats
HWR 1.3: 8 Gunplats
HWR 2.1: 46 Interceptors (clearly not good, looks like there’s a typo in the weapon files)

70 Hiig Interceptors vs 21 Hiig Gunships
HWR 1.3: 6 Gunships
HWR 2.1: 34 Interceptors (not good, gunships were already under-powered before)
Looks like all anti-corvettes are affected including light corvettes and multi-guncorvettes, and many people have noticed this online already.

50 Hiig Interceptors vs 1 Hiig Ion Frig
HWR 1.3: 95 seconds
HWR 2.1: 30 seconds (these are doing as good as pulsars for the cost, and they shouldn’t be. This shuts down the very popular hyper-torp strategy too)

50 Hiig Interceptors vs Research mod on Hiig Mothership (Time from first bullet fired)
HWR 1.3: 47 seconds
HWR 2.1: 60 seconds (not good considering the health of several other modules was already buffed)

Hopefully this stuff will be addressed in the next patch.

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I couldn’t help but watch that gif about 100 times.
Pacific Rim is the best dual pilot giant robot fighting kaiju movie ever.

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They are definitely a bit slower, especially if someone sets to evasive.

But they were super fast and snowball-y in HW2.

You are probably seeing things telling you to build Defenders, which I think may have been overnerfed a bit but were ridiculously overpowered before.
Just build a lot of scouts to hold with.

Yeah, I saw that as well. Big bug.

This is how I feel as well.
Ion frigates ONLY do one thing. And you lower their total cost of DPS each time you kill one.
A BC does maximum DPS equal to many frigates until it’s destroyed. ALSO it can take out Corvettes that attack it, which Ion frigates can’t alone.
That’s balance on paper, and it seems to work fine in game.
I still make BCs, but it’s not as much of a rush to get them and divert all resources to them even in a 3v3 game.

They are definitely still good. Especially since repair works far better on them than Frigates.

Oh I have a question though. Is there a way to set ships to auto repair? I figured setting my support firgates to guard would repair, but they don’t. Do I just have to micro them?

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Is it wrong that I liked your post just for the gif with the kitty?

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Yet interceptor vs interceptor takes quite a bit longer, eh?

Would seem damage is too high, and accuracy/projetile-velocity too low?

I haven’t seen defense plats built to see how weak they are. Never liked them. It did notice that Defenders seemed very weak even against interceptors, though.

Defense Fighters too. They don’t shoot down projectiles still, right? I made them against a Vagyr and they mostly seemed to do a little bit, and die pretty quick. Only benefit seemed to be that they had their own unit cap so I didn’t waste another’s.
I don’t expect them to completely shut down Vagyr where one race counters another, but boy I had to replace them a lot and they’re slow. I don’t really remember how they were in HW1. Didn’t see them so much like Defenders and others.

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[quote=“innociv, post:266, topic:1501936”]
Yet interceptor vs interceptor takes quite a bit longer, eh?

Would seem damage is too high, and accuracy/projetile-velocity too low?
[/quote]I think it’s the large hp buff on the fighters now. It needs to be rolled back ~15%.

I think the amount of projectiles (bullets, in this case) created on each firing burst should also be increased to both alleviate this long battle issue by making each interceptor run more devastating, and to more closely represent the fact that most of these strikecraft are supposed to be firing Gatling-type cannons. However, I do understand that decreasing the amount of projectiles could have been a compromise for the sake of better performance, in which case the simple hp reduction is the better route.

 

Anyway, I’ll just share these moments in my cpu skirmishes. I was overjoyed when I saw that large X formation coming to attack me :joy: I’m so happy the patch made sure the cpu (even for HW2 factions!) could and would use the new formation improvements:

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Band box with Y works now, once a ship does it goes repair the other that were selected now

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