Please don't let micro transactions or loot boxes ruin borderlands 3


(Penguin connoisseur.) #61

In my opinion, only RNG loot box MTs are a problem; it’s a sleazy practice that takes advantage of those with OCD and poor impulse control in general. At least when you buy the item or in-gane currency outright for a severly inflated price of say, $20, you don’t exploit people that will ruin themselves by spending hundreds with the RNG system.


(Stay frosty.....) #62

A big part of Destiny was a weekly “nightfall” event , where an existing mission(strike) was selected with certain modifiers , and gave high end rewards.

When the first dlc dropped it added a new strike , which could then be chosen to be the nightfall on any given week.
The problem was if you didnt own the dlc you could no longer do the nightfall any time that strike was chosen for it , which was every week or 2 after the dlc dropped.
It also applied to a lesser extent to other daily and weekly missions.

Whilst most people understood that obviously they wouldn’t have access to content they hadnt bought , they believed there should have been alternatives during ‘dlc’ weeks because it was such a big part of character progression.

In effect , the first expansion kinda took away/limited original content from people who didn’t buy it.

Apologies for the wall of text , im not very good at explaining things :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


(Stay frosty.....) #63

Judging by EA’s Fifa card packs I’d say no. A game mode that was meant to be a fun add-on ended up being so profitable that it became the Fifa games main focus , leading to a drop in overall quality of other features in some people’s opinion.

I’ve got no problem with game companies making money , but the shady practices and greed concerns me.

In the last few days it has came to light that Bungie have used hidden nerfs and falsely dislpayed data to slow down players abilities to earn loot rewards , and then offered those same rewards for real money.

Although theres no way to confirm that it was Bungie’s intention , its questionable to say the least , and thats the side of MT’s that worries me.


(JOIN ME ON MY PIG NOW) #64

Okay, so after chatting with Randy P, I’m reassured. It was on the nerdvana live podcast. He couldn’t discuss specifics, but in theory, if there was another borderlands game, it seems like they are likely to stick to previous ways of providing content, couple that with Randy’s tweets, I’m not too worried. At least that’s what I took away from it.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #65

:no_mouth:


(JOIN ME ON MY PIG NOW) #66

Don’t worry, it’s just that nothing has officially been announced, yet. He also mentioned that any changes are likely to be additional, rather than replacements to existing methods. So while there’s room for lots of possibilities in that, I expect that things will broadly be the same in terms of DLC content etc.


(Jakobs Public Relation) #67

I highly recommend this video as it explains some of the little variation of loot boxes. In short, a non cosmetic progression base loot box is just asking for trouble. I doubt Gearbox will ever do that but the video is def worth the watch.


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #68

Very good video, thank you!

At the 17 minute mark, I think he defines the line well: cosmetic only is fine (TF2 and apparently Overwatch, for example), but once the product confers a competitive advantage, they’ve crossed the line (terrible game economy or no). Also: this entire segment seems to be based around multiplayer games, where the ‘win’ in ‘pay to win’ is from multiplayer matches. Have these (cash-sale, variable-reward) loot crates actually been implemented in a single-player-only game?

While gambling regulations may likely be levied against this practice (regardless of the pay-to-win/cosmetic and/or multi/single-player aspect of the loot box contents), I don’t think it’ll stop them? Even if it drops their profit by a large amount, it’s probably still going to be implemented because it still makes a ton of money. Let’s say their profit drops by half and they only make one billion on MTXs… are they going to give that up? How low would the profit have to go before they skipped that practice altogether?

Seriously, thank you for posting that though… it’s refreshing to have an informed video on this without the corrosive rhetoric.


(Is this thing on?) #69

Is there a copy or transcript of that available anywhere? Didn’t even hear about it so I missed it. :frowning:

@Adabiviak: Randy P. is being extremely exceedingly extra special careful not to say “Borderlands 3” until all is ready. He mentioned a bit about his reasons in a recent thing - I’m going with the last GBX PAX panel or an interview? It was posted in the news or talk section somewhere, anyway. Personally, I think he’s being a bit overly paranoid about all this, but striking just the correct level of paranoia is a tricky thing to pull off.


(Is this thing on?) #70

Battleborn, effectively, since the same game has PvP and PvE, and can be played solo (private PvP or PvE). Note that the fastest way to find gear for character loadouts is through dropping in-game credits or purchased platinum to buy the various loot packs, or by playing specific story missions over and over for that one specific legendary.

You can earn platinum from the daily challenges, but it’s an incredibly slow way to earn enough to buy a loot pack, taunt, or skin. Also, you can at least use game time and in-game credits to get a lot of basic gear. Plus, the way the shard economy works there is a bit of a penalty to having legendary items in your loadout for versus.

I’m not sure if there’s ever been a purely single-player game that had non-cosmetic loot boxes? With Battleborn, the issue (before the introduction of Bots Battle) was simply that if you were NOT at all in to competitive PvP, you would not have been able to complete many of the dailies, so your ability to earn platinum would have been blocked.


(JOIN ME ON MY PIG NOW) #71

On twitch… Lemme grab a link…

First segment is mostly Randy and Mikey discussing net neutrality. Worth a watch. I ask a question around microtransactions in BL3 at the 38 minute mark.

(Also posted as a separate topic in gbx talk)


(Guajiro Pandoreño) #72

Nah, man, I get it. How many people don’t manage their expectations about things like this, and get upset when they’re not met? It’s the bread and butter of @Psychichazard’s bingo games. :laughing:


(JOIN ME ON MY PIG NOW) #73

And the cheese, and the jam.


(Is this thing on?) #74

Are there pickles to go with the cheese?

Meanwhile, the fallout from the great EA micro-transactions back-pedalling continue to both amaze and amuse.


(Matrixneo42) #75

We need a new system in freemium/paymium gaming. Why does everyone assume we want to pay money to speed up our progress in a game? Isn’t that like saying, “pay us money for less gaming hours”? I grew up with game systems that gave you more content and more extra lives for money. Like, if you went to the arcade and you ran out of lives, that’s ok, throw in 3 quarters and keep going. Or try episode 1 of Doom for free and buy the other 3 episodes for $30. Freemium doom today would be: “pay us $5 for a 24 hour running speed boost, and $5 for a 24 hour 2x damage boost”.

We need more “pay for more content”. Buying random weapons isn’t more content. Buying specific gear that is more fun than functional, is fine. Like the fireworks grenade in BL2.

But, buying weapon loot boxes would be a weird situation. I don’t think it belongs in Borderlands.

But you could let us buy random skin boxes. Why? Because it doesn’t make your character a better killer. It doesn’t make it take less time to beat the game. It might save you some “collect all the skins” time, but I’m fine with that.


(Is this thing on?) #76

Definitely.

Only if you get your money back if the RNG generates a skin you already have (and there’s no in-game trade option). Or the RNG could be modified so the pool was always the skins you didn’t already own.


(Matrixneo42) #77

Borderlands also “ruined” many games for me, for a long time.


(Matrixneo42) #78

Wow. EA is kinda doomed. Isn’t it? If the government bans “Wilson loot boxes”, then I think this means we will start to see less random rewards in loot packs and stuff. Because if the stuff you will receive in the loot box isn’t random, then it’s not gambling, right? So, get ready folks. 2018 will have plenty of games with micro-transactions that only get you in-game-currency and that in-game currency will reward very specific, non-random items. I’m sure EA will try to figure out some way to maximize the moola still. Perhaps the best player cards in FEFA will cost $25 each. Or they will make it a pyramid in the game. That you’ll have to buy certain cards in layers of the pyramid in order to buy higher layer cards.

I do hope though that the government regulations on this don’t get stupid. They could word it poorly and we’d end up essentially having to reclassify Borderlands 1 as gambling even though all the loot-boxes and money are fake/virtual and there’s no micro-transactions that reward you virtual items or virtual money. They would hear some of the buzz words and assume it’s a Wilson loot box. Borderlands 1 also has DLC that provides random loot (which is a poor way of saying it has extra story missions, extra items, and that you can randomly earn some new items in the DLC as you play). I think the key will have to be: “does it have consumable/repeatable DLC that rewards a random item in the game”.

Still too fuzzy. And it’s annoying. For now I just hope we have less of pay-to-win going forward and that consumer backlash will somehow stop/slow this all down. I think the problem is though that most likely, the people spending all the money on micro-transactions for pay-to-win are likely 10 to 25 years old. A kid with a gift card and no real connection to the value of the money he might spend on something. Or even an account that is linked to a credit card where the kid has the rights to purchase stuff periodically (perhaps 20 to 100 a month). Or maybe a 16 to 25 year old living from home, goes to work part time and spends all his cash on consumable DLC.


#79

Honestly, I’d prefer to just pay for new content. Make a good solid base game, length of BL2’s campaign was perfect.
Releasing expansion packs with new maps, gear, enemies, skins etc is the way to go. Only randomisation should whether or not a boss drops his legendary gear or not, at a reasonable rate. 1 in 20 or 30 whatever they come up with. If they were to release a new expansion pack for BL2 tomorrow, I’d get it. Same with TPS for that matter.
Let us know what we’re buying and no probs.


(Cayde 6) #81

You mean like Destiny 2 where a sizeable number of the most engaged players have seen the Microtransaction gear being the endgame (aka spendgame) gear rather than the raid? Even if the items are just cosmetic, the artwork going to pull a lot of dedication towards MTX sales than for other areas of the game. I have all of the prestige armour for each of my three characters from the Leviathan raid but there’s no point in using them because the MTX gear set are more appealing to most people and the raid armour doesn’t have any raid specific bonuses either. Were the raid specific bonuses removed to further encourage MTX sales?

And to top it off, Bungie actively makes the game appeal to minors with its dubious dialogue with some of their characters presumably to match its Teen rating, and they even got a streamer to rename his aliase to make it more suitable for a ‘family stream’ so he could be on their stream, coexisting in a game that permits gambling in all but legal terms in most legal jurisdictions.

Bungie has used a behavioural psychologist in order to take advantage of skinner box material on gamers and have created a job position that is dedicated solely to work on the MTX engram economy. So why would Gearbox pass up the opportunity that other developers are taking full advantage?