Political Discussion Thread II

Seriously?! We reached the ‘Whine about mod power abuse’-point? That’s a first.

That yammering can mean only one thing:

Uhm… :man_shrugging:

Riiiiiiight… :face_with_monocle:

( WARNING : This Heavily Edited Political Cartoon contains Spoofing Material that could easily offend Dems, Libs, Lefty’s and an occasional Libertarian.)

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Then:

Now:

Hmmmm🤔

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Won’t be coming for a while, though:

Amazon has won a victory in its hard-fought campaign to stop workers at an Alabama warehouse forming the company’s first union, in a tough blow for the US labor movement.

Workers at the Bessemer, Alabama, plant have voted 1,798 to 738 to reject the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union.

From:

There is a number of challenged ballots, but the result is so clear that those can’t change it. That’s that, then :man_shrugging:

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Maybe not - the vote is being appealed on the grounds of company interference, amongst other things. Also interesting to note that the Amazon facility is paying below going rate for the area… You wonder how much factual information the workers had access to (not to mention threats of stripping benefits and/or shutting the warehouse down).

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There are many significant facts missing from any articles I read that lead me to a non-opinion on the matter.
What are the working conditions the union would improve?
What are the current wages and benefits and what would the union improve?
Did Amazon gaslight, threaten and intimidate existing workers?
Why would workers be so dramatically opposed?
Why is it significant that Alabama is one of 27 “right-to-work” states where workers don’t have to pay dues to unions that represent them?

And most importantly : why do I vehemently curse Amazon in one breathe while giving my wife my wish list for the next Amazon order in the next?


In other news, according to my sister-in-law, DK now has vaccine passports, primarily for internal use so vaccinated residents can attend public events, restaurants, etc. Great way to step the local economy back up, no?

Well apparently not according to some

Conservative leaders say they will resist any movement toward a vaccine pass, arguing it’s an infringement of individual freedoms.

Republican Senator Rand Paul, of Kentucky, wrote that any required proof of inoculation would be “full-on vaccine fascism”. He urged readers to “burn your vaccine passport if they try to give it to you, and vote out any politician who won’t do the same”.

In states like Texas and Florida, Republican governors have already issued executive orders banning the use of mandated vaccine passports.
“We will continue to vaccinate more Texans and protect public health,” Greg Abbott said in a statement. “And we will do so without treading on Texans’ personal freedoms.”

■■■■■■■■■■■■■ ■■■■■■■ ■■■■ your ■■■■■■■ freedom. ■■■■.

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It’s a big topic over here right now Jefe. Outwardly at first as someone who is totally pro vax, you would be thinking great. And for international travel they are going to be introduced for sure. Unless you want to constantly be going into quarantine wherever you go. Domestically however it is a lot more complicated. If they introduce it for events, pubs, services etc, without some alternate entry option for the unvaxed like testing on the doors, it is going to be a social nightmare.

‘We found a way to beat racism, sexism, ageism, and every other ism!!’
‘That’s amazing how did you create this utopia?’
'We introduced domestic vaccine passports and now none of those isms matter. Now we only have 2 groups people fit into. Clean, or unclean. Vaxed or unvaxed. Member of accepted society, or lepers.

It is something that actually has the power to divide a country more than any other ism before it. It would essentially be forcing the entire country into one of 2 camps. It would create a true 2nd class citizen. Granted it would consist of mostly idiots and crazies, but it would still turn the country into a hellish dystopia.

Even with the vaccine pass because you can still catch and transmit the virus testing on the doors of these big group venues and monitoring is actually the safest way to go. Maybe using a voluntary vaccine pass as nothing more than essentially a fast pass system. Maybe it can hold a record of a recent negative test in the last 24 hours so they can be processed at the venues faster without testing.

Pubs and clubs I think regardless of whether your country adopts the domestic passport or not are going to see some form of it in play anyway. There is definitely going to be those people that only want to mix with other vaxed people. Some clubs will I think simply abuse private club laws and tie the membership cards to your vaccination status. They will charge more to get in, higher drinks charges, etc, and people will happily pay it. Many other types of industry are probably trying to think of similar loopholes to abuse.

You know me though. I think all these nutjobs should be held down and given the jab. They can bitch about rights for a few weeks and the world can move on lol. Only reason not to get vaxxed is if you can’t for medical reasons in my honest opinion.

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That’s the kind of crazy ■■■■ I was talking about, yes Sun. This way to be saved from the active volcano, but only if you have your vaccine passport. Screw the rest of you unclean scum, have fun melting.

I just finished reading your article after posting my thoughts @Jefe and peoples reaction to Yellow Fever in that is eerily similar to how I thought things would head with a mandatory passport. Hearing that some major universities require it already is going to create an even bigger divide in black and white education, as far more black people are wary of taking the vaccine. There are just too many critical social factors involved to make the passport mandatory.

There are going to be soooo many real hot button topics stem from this. Not the least of which being mandatory vaccinations to do certain jobs. I mean nobody wants an unvaccinated care assistant looking after granny for example. The forced vax to do my job crowd is going to be a very real big issue.

I think I should mention in fairness to Sun as I know some people skip his videos. That video above is worth a click. Only 36 seconds and does report some pretty scary on topic insight.

EDIT I think the best way forward if a vaccine passport comes in would be to make it voluntary. Always give an alternate way the unvaxxed population can access the same things, but I would make it a massive hassle to do so. Eventually most of them would give in and get the jab, because it is just not worth the hassle not to.

The inevitable international vaccine passport will for sure be the biggest thing to sway the anti vax crowd. They might be nuts, but they still love going on their jolly holidays.

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There’s an interesting point that seems to get overlooked whenever the discussion touches the topic of “vaccine privileges!”.

As my old professor for constitutional law recently remarked in an interview, it’s not about giving privileges to a part of the populace, but about returning to the state of affairs as set in the constitution. As of now in Germany, basic rights like the freedom of assembly, the freedom are curtailed to contain the virus. One can get a haircut, if one can produce a negative COVID-test that’s not older than 24 hours. (Aside: every German citizen has a right to be tested weekly and free of charge or can buy a test in a pharmacy).

The current suggestions here that are considered as reasonable go along the lines of treating the vaccinated equal to people who have the negative test result as stated above. And y’all know what, I have no problem with that.

Over here, as of now people with essential jobs like in hospitals, care homes, schools etc and the elderly are vaccinated first, while some don’t get appointments yet. As long as this is the status quo there is a point to be made that not all rights should be returned to vaccinated folks. But (yes, there had to be a ‘but’ lurking right round the corner), as soon as we reach the state where being vaccinated is no longer a matter of vaccination priorities due to lack of vaccine etc. and getting vaccinated is simply a matter of choice, then there is no reason obvious to not let the vaccinated go back to a more normal life. Mind you, the vaccine shots are free of charge, you just get the appointment and show up with a form of ID, get your temperature taken, have a short consultation with a physician and get your shot. That’s it. Getting inoculated is not a question of money or privilege since, well, we all pay for it with our taxes.

So, if someone keeps the opinion that getting vaccinated is something that other people can do, while they get the herd protection, that’s fine. But they better show up at the barber’s with their negative test result :man_shrugging:

In fairness, I watched quite a number of Sun’s little propaganda vids before I gave up on them. I honestly don’t see a reason to restart watching those contributions.

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That was basically the gist of what I was saying. Use a voluntary vaccine passport system, but allow testing for non vaxxed or it is going to get wild. It is super kicking off in the UK over these things. Really sensitive subject. Most governments are going to leave it in the hands of companies to decide things for themselves to a degree I reckon, and it’s going to get chaotic. I can imagine lawyers are going to have a field day with people suing for all kinds of policy individual companies have taken.

Me too. Which is why I made a specific point of mentioning it was actually worth a look. If you ignore the meme front, daft title, and meme end, The 25 second news report is super valid to the talk. It was reporting on the evacuation of the isle of St Vincent and how the cruise ships doing the evacuating were only taking vaccinated people. Which kind of leans to the point I was making about the 2nd class citizen situation. ‘You wait there until an acceptable plague ship picks you up or make your peace with the volcano. Whichever comes first’

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Yep, I know. And it could be done by using the systems that are already in place.

Duly noted, but:

No thanks. I started here with the thought that anyone is open for a discussion. This hypothesis couldn’t be proved, cause BIDEN=BAD. Ain’t got time for that :man_shrugging:

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Don’t forget Kamala:

( WARNING : This Heavily Edited Political Cartoon contains Spoofing Material that could easily offend Dems, Libs, Lefties and an occasional Libertarian.)

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I’ve said before that I like the idea of Kamala Harris better than I like her. It will be nice to point to a multiracial woman in a high office of this country when I tell my multiracial daughter that her only limits are her imagination. Her political past doesn’t really sit well with me, but that is to be expected when the cream of the crop is still skimming scum from the top of the barrel.

That said, as much as my experience with our last president prior to his election led me to believe he was a bad idea I went into his time as president willing to give him a chance to prove my preconceptions wrong. I’m still open to the idea that he deserves credit for some things, and believe that time and perspective may change my opinions further. But I feel like that openness I went into the Trump presidency with is not present in the folks taking shots at Biden and Harris, and that is what worries me. There is a distinct appearance that no matter what they say, no matter what they propose, no matter how they make overtures of cooperation and compromise, they will not be given a chance to prove themselves, which is what everyone deserves. The system is broken, and people engaging in mockery driven by partisanship is a large part of why it will never be fixed. Laughter is needed, so by all means let the jokes fly, but I always thought the first amendment was authored to protect well reasoned criticism rather than being nasty for the sake of being mean.

And no, @Sun_Tsunami, this is not a reaction to your posts specifically, rather the divisions that make those videos what some folks think are actual arguments. I love America, or at least I love what I was taught and conditioned to believe it is and stands for, which I see very little of these days, and that makes me sad more often than not.

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That is very true. It’s one of the more distasteful aspects of the partisan tribalism that has taken over US - and, increasingly, Canadian - politics in the last 10 years.It seems that social media has greatly contributed to that by rewarding group-think posts and punishing diverse opinions.

Case in point: it seems if you’re a Canadian conservative and you’re posting on social media or a news platform comments section, you have to insult Trudeau and the Liberal party no matter what, never mind the facts. Comments on CBC articles are becoming like the YT comments sections. I fear for our society if this keeps up, because no-one will actually stop to listen any more.

Thank goodness we have beer commercials though:

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Regarding passports : one doesn’t have to be vaccinated in order to be permitted into close contact with others. As Cur said, it only needs a recent negative test.

Some countries are better equipped than others for testing and vaccination. They can ensure that if one hasn’t gotten a vaccine due to supply issues, then at least regular testing can ensure that individual citizens can safely be in close contact with others. Or at least relatively so. This can also account for those who don’t want to be vaccinated.

Clearly this can’t work in places like Brazil and India but there’s no reason it can’t work in the States if it weren’t for the fact that LITERALLY EVERYTHING HAS TO BE FRAMED UNDER MUH FREEDOMS FIRST. (In fact I wonder how many have an actual mental checklist : it has to pass the Amendment Test before it can even be considered, which I’m sure is completely logical to them but is laughable to me)

Yes I get there is iniquity and that’s a major concern but that’s not the reason that the people I quoted above are resistant. I’ll call that “cultural differences” and leave it there. Of course, every country has its rebels. Denmark had hundreds of protestors. Hundreds of them.

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That’s essentially what I have been trying to say from the beginning. Recent testing even if vaccinated is the safest way. It is also best if they can do midway testing to gage the ratio of spread if any at like half time intermissions for theatres when they first start opening up again. That should give realistic data on the actual risk of transmissions at these kind of things if any. Use that data to tweak things to be as safe as possible while interfering as little as possible in peoples daily lives.

Unfortunately in the UK the government has done that good a job of scaring people to stay inside and away from each other to avoid the virus that they now have this fear of the unvaxxed as a result. That fear has been slowly festering into seething hate for what people are seeing as the selfish unvaxxed. The only reason it’s not really hit full boil is it is only people over 50 that have had the vax yet and those in priority jobs etc. So our 2 most active age groups have not had the chance yet at the vax. Once everyone has been offered the jab and it really is down to those that are unvaxxed are so by choice it is going to bubble over here I think. You should see the fear and hate comments on the articles. They outnumber the sane voices by about 50-1. :frowning:

Interesting side note, not sure if any of you guys heard but a piece came out last week about how our government used essentially psychological experimentation on the entire country using a variety of psychological tactics to control our behaviour in the lockdown. Boris supposedly said he had no idea it would work as well as it did as he expected the British public to put up more resistance during the first lockdown. The piece ended up positing they might have done too good a job and find it hard to get some of these people back out into the world again. Read so many articles on this stuff last few weeks, they are all blending so can’t remember where the article was from, but a quick google should find it.

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This is normal. As VH mentioned, it’s in the CBC comments section too but I’ve noticed that the worst offenders will post multiple times. Not just a few but dozens of new posts and responses to others.

I spent a couple days a while ago monitoring the YT comments on Canadian news articles and that was enough to convince me beyond a doubt that a) detractors speak much louder and much more obsessively, and b) professional foreign disinformation troll farms are 100% real.

I don’t have access to a true cross section of Canadian opinion since island living is vastly different from the rest of the country but I certainly don’t get the impression that Canadians are as idiotic and hysterical as comments sections would indicate. And I would hope it’s the same in the UK.

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See Jefe, this is what truly scares me… being stuck inside I truly have no idea. I reallllllly fooking hope so mate. Unfortunately my outlook on the world is filtered through an online lens. Pretty scary filter to live through tbh with the state of the comment pool :slight_smile:

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