Well I doubt anyone will not be ok with that. I dont think anyone would ask for enemy combatants to be tried at a civilian court. I dont think you should worry at all about the cost of housing/etc for prisoners as it is utterly insignificant compared with the total cost of an another war in the middle east. What matters is that you follow a due process to acquire justice.

It was pretty bad. Not as bad as the Japanese treated US soldier (I think, can’t remember), but still bad

I’m watching the Democratic debate right now. Not even remotely enthused about it.

Well, this is rather… Impressive. I somehow suspect this is going to be one hell of a multi-quote.

Not a problem, was feeling a bit paranoid, and figured it’d be better to head it off early.

This is part of what I was talking about when I referened clarifying our foreign policy earlier in our discussions, there are things we do which are for such reasons as them being there before the current people in office were placed there. We need to take a look at what we’re doing in regards to the results rather than our current haphazard approach.

Completely understandable (to me at least, that might be more of a comment on my own finickiness though). Regardless, amusingly that makes me less sure about whether ISIS is a threat, since it’s possible some form of sufficiently large terrorist attack could reach that level. I would admittedly put the chances fairly low though.

Out of the two, the concern about the current separatist trends in EU politics (and especially Germany) is a concern I actually share. It’s a genuine issue which may very well lead to a splintering of the EU which would have literally global implications.

This one I have to admit more amuses me than anything else, since it’s been said about immigrants for so many centuries that there are quotes dating back to our own founding on the issue. While I wouldn’t totally discount the possibility that they won’t fit in over time, I find myself skeptical on this as more than a generational issue. To be fair though, as I noted above I haven’t really read that much on their social status post immigration. I tend to be more interested in policy I admit.

He’s on Steam, but not on here generally.

The first is… Actually something we lack. We should be far, far less frightened and enraged than we are now. Looking back at history, we’re in an era which is remarkable for how little threat we’re under, not the opposite. The second however is actually a much more interesting question, and I think one that comes down more to psychology than anything else. A combination of, since we’re there and taking actions then we can be blamed for the whole situation, and simple tribalism (the tendency to focus anger on those different from you). This all said, I would be remiss if I didn’t admit we have a history of doing some awful things in a few places.

I think part of it is simply the complexity of bureacracy, I mean if you look back at a lot of the actions we’ve taken over the years they tend to sort of build up in a series of covering patinas as different levels of our government take actions, often without awareness of what the rest is doing.

Ignoring the moral indefensibility, the deaths the PR would cause, and the Geneva Convention, the practical implications of fighting an enemy who knows you will not accept their surrender would be measured in the lives of American soldiers. Further though, moral behavior is not for the benefit of the enemy, but for the benefit of ourselves, whether they hold themselves to such standards or not.

Well said. Regardless of whether or not they ā€˜deserve’ diplomatic relations, it gives us a channel to work through.

Hrm…You’ve a way with words.

Going to read the transcript after this, yeah though, the Democratic debates are sort of… Nonentities. The most interesting thing I found in them so far this year was the civility, which is admittedly nice, but still.

If the in excess of 500 reported sexual assaults, largely (but not entirely) committed by male Muslim refugees seeking asylum on New Year’s Eve in Cologne, Germany are any indication they will have some difficulty assimilating into European Countries. A New York Times article discusses the attacks and the overall tone indicates a bias against the Police, who admittedly could have / should have done a better job of Policing that night at least once things began to escalate and get out of hand. To be fair, the article does mention that the German Police have never had to deal with that type of situation on New Year’s Eve before. Perhaps the most disturbing part of the NYT article is the following quote:

Much is still hazy about that night. But the police reports and the
testimony of officials and victims suggest that the officers failed to
anticipate the new realities of a Germany that is now host to up to a
million asylum seekers, most from war-torn Muslim countries unfamiliar
with its culture.

That quote implies that Germany is at least somewhat to blame because it didn’t explicitly inform the (mostly) male Muslim refugees (involved in the attacks), upon entering Germany, that German Culture frowns upon sexual assault. :expressionless: That, quite frankly, is ludicrous. Fortunately, there seems to be a large amount of surveillance video available that will hopefully allow the German Police to positively identify many of the attackers. The foreign attackers should not simply be deported. They should be tried and, if convicted, serve out a jail sentence in German prison. They should only be deported after serving their time. Any German citizens involved should be tried and if convicted serve time but, for obvious reasons, not be deported after serving their time.

As I stated previously, there is no moral equivalent between the US / US Soldiers and the ISIS Caliphate / ISIS terrorist soldiers. And if ISIS knows we will not accept their surrender, perhaps at least some of them will give up the fight. Granted, not all will but some might re-consider if they know that they will be killed upon capture. ISIS has no qualms about torturing and killing ā€œenemyā€ soldiers. They kill men, women and even children.

ISIS is a homicidal / suicidal Death Cult that cannot be reasoned with and needs to be destroyed not simply contained. Their destruction should ideally come at the hands of a US led coalition of US, European and Arab allies with an actual plan and actual leadership. President Obama has shown repeatedly that he is both unable and unwilling to provide the leadership required to ultimately destroy ISIS (in as much as that can be done). You cannot destroy an ideology with weapons, but you can do your best to destroy those who practice that ideology. The sooner this is done, the better as allowing ISIS to fester and grow will only lead to more terrorist attacks and regional instability down the line.

ISIS uses burning people alive / beheading them in Internet videos as recruitment Propaganda. ISIS uses anything that does not support their twisted, perverted ideology as recruitment Propaganda. That would include the Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion, since anyone who openly speak out against ISIS and does not support ISIS’ perverted form of Islam is an ā€œInfidelā€ who must be either be converted or killed if they refuse to convert. So, it is basically ā€œJoin us or dieā€.

Treating ISIS terrorist soldiers according to the standards in the Geneva convention (which we currently do), will not and has not caused ISIS to treat ā€œenemyā€ soldiers according to the same Geneva standards. The US would only lower itself to the level of ISIS, if we tortured their soldiers prior to summarily executing them. I oppose torture but have no issue with the summary execution of an ISIS terrorist or any other terrorist for that matter. A terrorist’s crime is being a terrorist. A terrorist has chosen their path and any terrorist, ISIS or otherwise, is Human only at the very strict DNA level. Terrorists don’t have a right to life, since they would deny that same right to anyone who opposes their ideology.

While I certainly understand your point and concede that there will likely be some negative PR blowback, I will have to respectfully disagree that the summary execution of a terrorist is ā€œmorally indefensibleā€. Note that I am only speaking about terrorists. For example if the US and Russia or China got involved in a war at some point in the future, I would not argue for the summary execution of Russian or Chinese soldiers. They should be treated according to the Geneva Convention. I would also expect Russia and China to take our soldiers prisoner and treat them as humanely as possible in accords with the Geneva Convention. ISIS is not entitled to the same level of civility as Russia or China would be in a US vs. Russia or US vs. China conflict.


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What do you mean by ā€œfit inā€? This isn’t comparable to illegal Mexicans popping out kids in Arizona or Confederate soldiers fleeing to South America after the Civil War - this is the largest immigration crisis the world has seen since WW2. These people have shown multiple times that they cannot coexist in a western democracy. Politically, religiously, and socially they are incompatible. @Poisd2Strike touched base on a lot of this and I’d really encourage you to look up how they’re doing post-immigration considering you acknowledged not following much about it. You don’t even have to look much further than YouTube to be able to grasp the severity. Sociologists have already analyzed the effects and the future outlook is something I, an American with mostly German ancestry, can barely even cope with. Violent crime has tripled in some areas, riots have ensued, political cohesion between the EU is fading, etc. Even if the immigration floodgates were closed entirely, current birth rates indicate that Europeans will be the minority by an overwhelming amount in multiple countries by year 2035. Within a decade the damage will be irreversible unless there is immediate and dramatic change. Germany has committed cultural suicide, courtesy of Angela Merkel. All of that said, I truly hope the rest of Europe, Canada, and America are taking notes, but I’m not counting on much given the way things have been going.

[quote=ā€œTemetNosce, post:44, topic:1199216ā€]
The first is… Actually something we lack. We should be far, far less frightened and enraged than we are now. Looking back at history, we’re in an era which is remarkable for how little threat we’re under, not the opposite.
[/quote]Fair enough point. However, my fear or frustration isn’t with any kind of immediate threat. It’s with the thought (arguably a reality) of what’s around the corner. Western civilization could be facing the worst conditions in recent history within a century. I don’t like the way things are building up; I don’t think it will be something that’ll be easily brushed off. I have tried to reconcile my opinions internally, remain calm, and accept that there’s not much I can personally do about it, but I feel as if I have an innate responsibility to care for my country/culture and the future of my children. It’d be easy to refrain from getting pissed if my own life was the only one that mattered.

Had to release some steam there. You know what’s pretty funny about all of this? My last name is Marx and my family is almost entirely German. Oh, the irony… Cue the Marxism jokes.

I was going to make a Marxist joke, but I didn’t want to start a free for all.

Badumtsss.

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Honestly made me lol.

@TemetNosce, is my conservatism showing yet? :wink: Referring to our conversations a few nights ago.

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Western civilization by all means, its at its highpoint right now. During the cold war, a single spark could have made both western and eastern civilization into a smoldering wreck. We are still living in the age of Pax Americana. I think most sane people realizes the a power vacuum would be absolutely horrible and most people do not wishes for that to happen. I severely doubt USA would loses its national prestige in the next 50 years. I think that covers most of us’s life time.

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I took a look at the article, then ran some searches out of interest. I will say I was surprised to find that in Europe immigrants actually do have a history of increased crime rates, contrary to the US (where the opposite has been found). I’ll try to remember to take a further look at this later, since I wasn’t able to find any long term information on it quickly. I admit I’m still skeptical how well it’ll hold up though.

This I actually agree with regardless, people should be held responsible for their actions regardless of things such as race or creed.

Briefly, killing people who surrender not only actually helps the enemy, but costs the lives of American soldiers with no gain besides personal satisfaction. Far more so than we’re discussing in pointed fact, there’s a wealth of military history to drawn on as far as the results of leaving an enemy no way to escape. As for the last part, while holding people responsible for their actions may be less satisfying, it can still result in the same thing if they deserve it.

It’s certainly true this is a huge crisis, albeit I think you may be overthinking how severe it is in this context, as the Syrian refugees in Germany for example still don’t even make up the largest group of immigrants there. Past that, I’m well past skeptical that Muslims as a whole are irredeemably criminal, particularly if we take a look at the crime rates of more civilized Muslim majority countries.

I covered this a bit earlier, but the total Syrian refugee population in Germany accounts for under a single percentage point of their population. In truth I’m understating things, it doesn’t even account for half a percentage point.

Things I’d personally be watching right now are (as I mentioned earlier) primarily economic or domestic rather than military. There are certainly signs of instability and possible problems that might cause global impacts, so I’m not going to argue that we can be completely at ease, but we aren’t in a climate of imminent danger.

Quite all right, sometimes you just want to get it out.

Started back with the military spending, yeah though.

Google GOP debate just started. Here’s a link:

My quick thoughts:

Was an interesting debate without Trump on the stage and the other candidates definitely capitalized on that by attacking Cruz left and right. He handled himself pretty well, though. Rubio had a good night and Bush did surprisingly well. Rand was his usual methodical self and unfortunately doesn’t seem to be doing much to gain more attention outside of his current supporters. Christie and Carson didn’t have bad nights, but they seemed like they were in the background for most of the debate. Kasich, as usual, was pretty much entirely irrelevant. I think Rubio won the debate tonight.

Edit)
Wow, apparently I was too critical of Rand tonight. Early polls on multiple websites are showing he won the debate. Nice to see for a change.

Haven’t read a transcript yet, but I will later and post my thoughts. So for now all I’ll say is that I’m very surprised by this, if so it’d be by far his best debate.

I just did a quick Google search and post-debate polls aren’t credible by any means, but I’m shocked nonetheless. Heavy, Time Magazine, the Fox poll, and the New York Times were some of the ones I looked at. I don’t take the Trump votes seriously because of his absence last night and Paul leads all of the other candidates by about 5-15% with Cruz and Rubio being the only others in the same tier.

To be fair, media portrayal afterward has a huge amount of impact on who actually wins anyways - so if the media say he’s winning, then he effectively is just because of that. Regardless, I’ve started perusing the transcript, so far only a handful of questions in, mostly cringing due to bad moderation - the candidates aren’t even trying to answer the questions, and starting off talking about Trump was just unpleasant.

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this is quite a nice political debate to be honest

Alright, just finished reading this and honestly I disagree with you mostly here, except on Kasich (the man has a wallflower problem, and that Flint response was outright bad). Personally what stood out most to me is that I would call this probably Rubio’s weakest debate. That isn’t to say he performed worse than everyone else (I’d say he was still the second best debater on stage), but the usual level of polish and sharp ability to differentiate himself didn’t show so much here. I think that was partially covered by how much he spoke, but I really felt like he faded despite this. Cruz seemed to be fumbling, despite also getting huge amounts of speaking time, his responses about his carpet bombing rhetoric and flip flopping were at best diversions, and possibly failed ones. Christie felt desperate to me, and Carson sort of falls into the same category as Kasich in regards to having a sort of ghost life to him. I will say this was a better performance than usual for Bush, but even with that it wasn’t more than mediocre.

I just can’t say I found it a very good debate, except for Rand. Who yes, really did extraordinarily better than usual. Especially early on. He did fall apart when he got confronted on abortion versus state rights, but even with that he came across as more aware and on topic than the rest of the field.

Yeah, I was trying to take each of their performances at face value and not compare it to any other debates. May not be the most accurate way to judge, but I wasn’t expecting much to begin with. I agree that Rubio and Cruz didn’t have their best night, but I do think they handled themselves pretty well given how many jabs were thrown back and forth. My impression was that is was a pretty balanced debate. Nobody really stood out and nobody significantly regressed aside from a few comments. Rand did seem a little reluctant to answer the abortion question and I’ll admit it made me cringe a bit.

That’s fair, by that standard Rubio did well, I suppose my response was an expectations matter. Cruz though I’m just shaking my head over, particularly given the number of opportunities he flubbed into outright problems. It may not hurt him much, but I can’t help viewing it as a poorly done thing. You’ve got a point about this not being likely to be terribly meaningful for the race overall, but I do think that Rand (and to a lesser extent Bush) stood out here. Albeit in the latters case it’s more due to how rarely he’s active in debates, Rand at least had a genuinely good night. Contrastingly, I’d argue that Carson, Kasich, and Cruz had bad nights, although Carson’s and Kasich’s were pretty much as expected, and Cruz’s may or may not have any impact on him. Actually the biggest impact may be what didn’t happen, that is to say Cruz doing well, since it could turn out that he needed it for Iowa.

thats a topic for another time and place