My idea of gun control is to USE BOTH HANDS WHEN SHOOTING! Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!
If you really want to get into the numbers, there’s roughly 9,000 homicides committed with firearms in the US annually. (I’m discounting suicides, because it’s irrelevant - you can jump off a bridge, step in front of a truck, etc. Gun accidents in homes can be cut down on if we’d START TEACHING OUR CHILDREN ELEMENTARY GUN SAFETY.)
As it happens, the vast, VAST majority of those crimes are committed in only a relatively few counties in America. So, it’s not that ‘gun violence’ is a widespread American problem as much as it’s a relatively localized American problem. For example, I live in St. Louis - ■■■■ is cray here, fo’ real. But you drive 30 miles from the city in either direction, and the levels of violence are comparable to Denmark.
We should also note that the majority of crimes committed with firearms are committed by persons already prohibited from owning firearms (read, they’re ■■■■■■■ felons). Maybe if we did something about enforcement, and put an end to the revolving door regarding criminals and violent acts, perhaps we’d have something? Let’s decriminalize drugs, free those prisoners, and use all that extra prison space to lock up violent ■■■■■■■■. Deal? DEAL!
I own a few modern sporting rifles (i.e., “assault rifles”) and I’ve built two AR-15s from scratch. I have more than 10 firearms, and probably a couple thousand rounds of ammunition. Know how many people I want to hurt with them? Zero. Why? BECAUSE I’M NOT ■■■■■■■ CRAZY, THAT’S WHY.
We don’t have a ‘gun violence’ problem, we have a criminal justice and mental health problem.
Tools are not neutral when it comes to the likelihood and success of a suicide attempt.
Half of suicides in the US are by firearms, and a 2006 study in the American Journal of Public Health, which examined 30 years of gun ownership and suicide across the US, found that in areas with more guns, more men kill themselves. It concluded that “policies that reduce firearm ownership will likely reduce suicides by all means and by firearms.”
A 2005 Consensus Study Report of existing research on the association also found a cross-sectional link between gun ownership and higher overall (by all methods) suicide rates.
A study of suicides between 2000 and 2009 (it’s in the International Review of Law and Economics, Vol. 37, March 2014, but that probably needs subscription access) found that though some people do substitute alternative methods, firearms are “strongly related to overall suicides”. The authors conclude that “The magnitude of this result is not trivial. If all states were to reduce the rates of ownership by 10 percentage points, the expected result would be between 1640 and 2960 fewer deaths by suicide each year”.
Suicide attempts by firearm are more likely to be lethal. About 85 percent of suicide attempts with a firearm end in death. Drug overdose, the most widely used method in suicide attempts, is fatal in less than 3 percent of cases - source. As Harvard Public Health point out in that article, suicide is usually carried out on impulse, so availability of tools, and how quickly/easily they will kill you, makes a real impact on how many people die. As well as being less efficiently lethal, other common methods of suicide like pills or carbon monoxide offer a period when an individual can reconsider, unlike a trigger pull. This gives a chance for rescue once acute feelings of suicide ease. 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt don’t go on to kill themselves - source.
As in the gun debate overall, it’s helpful to consider countries that have already introduced gun laws. After a number of high profile mass shootings in the 1980s and '90s, Australia introduced sweeping gun control measures. (There haven’t been any mass shootings since, although the US is probably the only developed country with enough mass shootings to give statistically overwhelming data about the effects of any gun control measures, should they ever pass). In any case, firearm suicides rates fell by 80% after the buy back and tightening of regulations, and there was no increase in suicide by other methods to compensate for this drop - overall, the people no longer killing themselves with guns in Australia are not killing themselves with other tools (original source and more digestible source).
This^ is a whole other issue, in my honest opinion, as the right for someone to end there own life is a matter of some debate, and firearms are merely a more efficient method of committing suicide.
Personally, i do not believe that suicide should be a facet of the pro-gun-control argument, as i believe suicide being viewed as a mental health issue to be a tad fascist. I believe that therapy should be readily available, but that government-assisted suicide should also be provided after an acceptable amount of mandatory consoling. One is not automatically mentally ill if they don’t view life as worth living…
That’s getting into a diffrent subject matter though, admittedly…
I’m not actually familiar with him, but from a quick google search, I’d have to agree with you. I think euthanasia should be an option for both physical and mental health, though not as a first effort. I believe there’s a case in Canada’s court system (not sure where it falls at the moment, but it will likely be brought to the Supreme Court) about extending the right to euthanasia to mentally ill people
“Why not?” is my counter argument. You know, i never understood why people collect coins, postcards or other such things, but i’ve never felt the need to ask them. At least a gun has a use, however un-hoped for, and i personally take slight offense to the argument that one shouldn’t collect them, as if that in itself makes the person doing so a mass murderer in the making. I like to go shooting. I find it fun. I like the peace of mind and feeling of freedom, knowing that i am not reliant on others to keep me safe if i am attacked in a similar manner. I fail to see anything wrong with it, and don’t think that the fact that a gun’s purpose it to kill other people makes it “wrong”…
Why? Because i know i am a good person, and that i am not going to take a life for any other reason than to defend myself, or those i love. Nor do i think that i or any of America’s other good, law-abiding gun-owners should be punished for less than a percentage of people who choose to take the lives of others with their guns. As @MickityMike already said, and which i back 110%:
Guns are tools; that is a fact. It’s not up for debate. It is a tool that’s sole purpose is to deal death; that is also a fact, and not up for debate. Yet one last fact is that a gun cannot load itself, aim itself, and pull it’s own trigger. It’s literally impossible. That means that the problem isn’t in the gun, but in the person wielding it, and if you are seeking a solution to a problem, the best way is to typically address it at it’s source…
They’re completely different in every single way and you know that, but okay.
isn’t the main point for most ‘gun control yatta yatta’ sht to be against the people who are not law-abiding gun owners?
We had another gun amnesty where 51,000 unregistered guns were turned in to be destroyed, all because the morons didn’t want to go through the proper channels to gun ownership here.
I’m assuming you fellas own everything legally and have gone through all the proper whatever-the-fk it is for 'mericans to own guns.
You are missing my point completely. Every single gun could be legal or illegal; it doesn’t matter, because it is up to the person using it to use it irresponsibly. If a drunk driver kills someone, i don’t blame the car or the liqour; i blame the person, and question what caused them to make such an irresponsible decision.
Yes, and i believe i even stated it:
It still doesn’t contest my point.
You can use labels if you want; i won’t. I’ll only use the most reasonable argument that i can think of, to state my point.
Oh that’s just me joshin. My reasonable argument is coming later tonight. Well, I can’t swear it’s reasonable, but then again you and Irish brought up mental health care as a defense to gun control and advocated for legal suicide, so I take no shame in it.
Don’t bother; i won’t read it. I never debate with those that devalue my opinions- however craftily veiled -without offering a civil counter-argument, which this-
-is not. Oh well… I knew the likely outcome of the responses i would get when i made my arguments. Such is the world of trying to debate gun control if you are against weapons bans…
I will be “muting” this thread, because i tend to get uncivil if i am insulted a second time after i’ve unveiled the first offense.
[Insert generic “good day to you, sir” response here]
Well I mean it does matter. So…
The mental health excuse is a fun one because mental health problems exist everywhere, but not everywhere has readily available ‘pew-pew I’m defending myself’ toys.
Like, I don’t care one way or the other if someone owns a gun or fifty (if you own fifty tho… pls)
cos it doesn’t affect me all here (tho it will affect me if the guns rights for Australia morons stop being the laughing stock of the country anytime soon.)
Tho, I was just originally askin’ why the other fella owned so many (so many to me at least.)
Was just curious since I know no one who owns any.
Didn’t really intend for it to become a “attack and defend” on gun control.
no u. That being said I’m surprised that “goddamn snowflakes” coming from me is taken as anything but sarcastic fuckabout. But hey, whatever works. I apologize. Anyway, I type rants at my own pace, dammit! Regardless of the Attentive audience!
Doesn’t mean that I can’t be glib once more.
Hey lookit that.
FIrstly I wanna agree with @hattieinduni on the depressed people + guns = suicide bit. So we’ll touch on that first. It’s really really easy to handwave it off as
But it’s not that simple. Without going into hattie’s link spam I can say that there are a lot of reasons that people opt to use guns. Probably the biggest is that a stupid amount (90% or so, IIRC, but that number is coming out of my ass) happen at an instantaneous low points that someone who’s been dealing with depression have. They’re basically having the worst moment of their worst day and they’re looking for something immediate. While jumping in front of of a car can be deadly, you run the risk of just heavily injuring yourself, leading to a loss of ability to commit subsequent attempts. Pills are too slow and have a low success percentage. Slitting one’s wrists takes a lot of time and determination, and can leave a mess (believe it or not this is a common thought that suicidal people have, particularly women - they don’t want to cause more problems by going out that way). You could as Irish puts it, walk to a bridge or building and jump off, but that usually involves a lot of time and energy which leaves the subject time to reconsider, can escalate to a public situation very clearly, and can also lead to the same problems of jumping in front of a car.
I know this because the stats (gathered presumably after failed attempts) back it up, and also I have had every single one of these thoughts.
You see -
Is not just a glib joke. I have a long history of depression, mild to moderate alcoholism, and self harm. I respect the fact that even if I wanted to own a gun, I should not for this very reason. I’m a really high risk factor thanks to great genetics (depression is heavy in my dad’s side - Two of my uncles killed themselves [via gun, if anyone’s curious], my dad and 2 more uncles are on antidepressants, and I think both my brothers are as well), my penchant for the drink, and my past tendencies. Specifically, there was a time not too long ago (an extended period) where the thought of killing myself would pop up at least once a day. I don’t say this to scare anyone - I’ve actually had a pretty solid run lately, despite a cavalcade of ■■■■ pouring down on me in the past few months. Only comes up about once a week, and it’s rarely serious.
However, it doesn’t mean that I haven’t considered every available avenue. The only two frontrunners I have are guns and intentional solo car accident. The latter is more appealing in that if I do it right, I can probably still get life insurance to pay out to my family (bonus). The problem there is there are really too many safety things in cars now to reliably set that up and I can’t really afford to wreck multiple cars after rehab if I just manage to hurt myself. The gun is absolutely more reliable, but there are concerns there. As stated earlier, the mess would probably be an issue. Plus I’d likely have to do it indoors, and in the past I’ve lived with family and roommates, and I feell like that would probably cast a pall over the house.
It’s thoughts like these that make certain comments really stand out.
See, I read things like this and start to wonder to myself… what’s a good amount of counseling for someone like me, with a history of self harm and a generally ■■■■■■ outlook on life? At what point am I the lost cause in this scenario? I certainly have issues with believing that life isn’t worth living, so I seem like a pretty good candidate for this. I mean, logically my age would factor in in some capacity (I’m around 30, which can be pretty young for these things). Also, if people are willing to accept my bleak, ■■■■■■ outlook on life, is it really a wrong thing to have? Am I fooling myself by thinking maybe eventually the head demons are gonna go away? Would I have help? Like if someone espoused this attitude, then it seems like they’d want to help “ease the pain”. My big stress is like I said, leaving a mess behind. Having someone to clean that up so neither my family nor law enforcement did would be a pretty solid get.
I get that stanhope in particular espouses this mentality but it’s something I disagree with pretty wholeheartedly. And a lot of people are in my boat - they think about it often, but likely won’t do it except for one, split second of absolute despair and torment.
A gun helps that.
Most other ways don’t.
Anyway, now that everyone is thoroughly moped out, I wanted to hit on another thing as well.
I’ve got… loads of problems with this particular line of thinking. And keep in mind, this is coming from a guy who is “middle of the ground” regarding gun control. There are arguments that I can’t make sound counterarguments for. Plenty of them. This isn’t one of them because it isn’t even really a defense against gun control - it’s a deflection to another problem that the people keeping gun control down have no interest in stopping.
It’s especially effective because it’s exactly what a liberal wants to hear - hey, life sucks for this group of people, maybe we can fix that. It also shifts the conversation from something
to something that is pretty easy for most people to get behind. “Hey, lets fix the mental health care system!”
Except the argument usually comes from those on the right or libertarians, who’s primary call these days is for “Less government and less government spending.” A healthy amount of funding for mental facilities comes from federal and state levels, and they’re usually the first on budget chopping blocks because they don’t get any press and hey - it’s not like “crazy people” are a big voting demographic. More to the point, the only time that any major source talks about how ■■■■■■ mental health stigmas and our mental health system is brought up is after a mass shooting. It’s not like Ron Paul is out there banging the coffers out to fund a mental hospital or a drug rehabilitation center any other time. If we were serious about this, it’d be a part of the larger political conversation year round, not item 754 on the list of “■■■■ we need to get done” right above “plug the hole in the public pool” and “utility companies are accidentally charging tax twice” in two states.
This can be compounded pretty hard by the current far right stance on “healthcare is a privilege”. Fun fact : even if there were no stigmas surrounding mental health issues, its still pretty hard to hold down a job if you have those problems. A good amount of the people who would be left out in the cold by a republican healthcare plan have mental health problems, and they won’t be getting treatment soon.
The irony in this particular context was summed up by someone on site at LV during the shootings, I thought. While watching patients get wheeled in they lamented “It’s great in this country that owning a gun is a right, but healthcare is a privelege.”
This isn’t to say it isn’t something we should do.
It’s just something we won’t do.
And it’s at best tangential to the mass shooting problems in america, as well as the less well touted normal gun crimes. Which is why it gets brought up in the first place - as a standard backup to “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. Which is true, because
They do help though, because again, it’s what they’re designed to do.
Hmm. Well, that’s odd - why aren’t we no. 1 again? And what’s this? Japan? Russia? India? All those filthy eastern Europeans? (Just kidding, Euros - love you all.) How are they killing themselves if they DON’T OWN ANY DAMN GUNS?
Sure, I’m a smart ass sumbitch, but I think it’s fairly obvious both pictorially and logically, that lots o’ guns doesn’t translate to lots o’ suicides. Is using a gun easier to commit suicide? Sure, I guess for dudes. But talk to a cop, coroner, prosecutor or just look up the data - women don’t shoot themselves. (Don’t know why - they just tend not to.) They slit a wrist, OD, bungie jump off a bridge sans bungie, etc.
So… When does the counterargument begin, yo? It does shift the conversation - it shifts it from something that will not work to reduce deaths (ya know, cause criminals do not typically acquire their weapons legally because they are indeed criminals) to something that will.
And as far as liberal vs conservative arguments for and against gun control… Ha, both of them can kiss my libertarian ass.
Wait - who’s deflecting again…? You’re assuming that the government is well-positioned to administer mental health. (Talk to the VA and then get back to me, yo.) Simply because libertarians say the government spends too much damned money does not then translate to “libertarians hate mental health.” That’s a little like a straw man argument, my friend.
Because it’s fun? I shoot every other week or so, and I enjoy shooting different types of firearms… because… it’s fun. Have you ever gone shooting? It’s a great time!
Why did I build my own ARs? Because that is also fun! And if I do that, I get exactly what I want on it far cheaper than what I could buy it off the shelf for.
Why do I have a couple thousands rounds of ammo? BECUASE SHOOTING IS FUN AND I NEED BULLETS TO GO SHOOTING TO HAVE THE FUN.
I realize that more than 10 guns and 2 thousand bullets probably sounds like an assload of scary ■■■■ to people who aren’t into guns and shooting. But it’s really not all that much. 2,000 bullets (depending on for what gun) can fit into a shoe box or two. It’s not like I have an entire wall in my basement dedicated to ammo storage…
The (hopefully fairly obvious) flaw with attempting a correlation here is that there are numerous other risk factors which cause suicide and they vary between countries - not least in the quality of mental health care (a point I think you originally relied on).
I would urge anyone interested to give some of the sources I spammed a cursory glance, perhaps particularly the Consensus Study Report, which provides a sense of the complex, nuanced approach to data needed to reach a conclusion about how firearms affect suicide rates (certainly beyond what I’m equipped for when it comes to statistical analysis!).
This is a long way from my own field, so my knowledge isn’t comprehensive, and if you’ve spotted any substantial and peer reviewed academic studies which reach the conclusion guns don’t impact suicide rates, I would definitely be interested.
