Political Thread Derailment

I’m not even American dude. It doesn’t take much to see what’s going on. I was raised in a communist country then moved to the UK and the deja vu I’m having on a daily basis is hair-raising. Btw I was vilified and called every name under the sun for similar posts already by some of the more intellectual participants of this forum and banned twice after that so in case you want answers after not seeing me again, they’re all neatly laid out in Orwell’s 1984.

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Ah the good old unperson tactic. Just completely remove any trace of something existing. The intellectual types you are talking about still be the first against the firing wall. It’s almost like the commies infiltrated our entire system before WW1 and have been slowly indoctrinating us since.

All the woke bs really gets old. Whatever happened to just leaving your political opinions at home?

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Seems to me that the West had it so good for so long that you people take everything for granted and it looks like you need to destroy everything in order to appreciate it.

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Whoa whoa whoa. Do not lump all of us into the woke category. You are 100% right though. The people advocating for “socialism” are well off white liberals, who were given everything by their banker daddies. When you meet someone who escaped Cuba, Venezuela, China, the USSR, etc, they all say that communism is horrible and evil, and if you know history, you know they are correct.

In the USA, it’s become rural vs urban. I live in a rural state. Rural states get ragged on by new York and commiefornia because cows fart and they think it’s depleting the ozone. Yet when you look at la, SF, NYC, Chicago, etc, those cities are overcrowded, filthy, super rich and super poor are all that live there. After ww2, life for our citizens became very very easy. That doesn’t mean we don’t have our hardships, but I’d rather be poor in the USA than in any other country. I’d love to buy these millennial socialists a plane ticket to Venezuela or 1980s Ukraine, see how much if a utopia it is.

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Anyone who says socialism is the way is living a fantasy. The space of economic inequality that capitalism creates is the space for individual growth. Some people are less ambitious than others and the possibility to educate yourself better and achieve more should remain intact. To want more from life than others around you is a part of human nature. The only way to go against that and level the socio-economical landscape so the tail-end of society feels better about themselves is to do it using a murderous, authoritarian institution and that’s why every socialist country in history had one. Living in the UK slowly makes me feel like I tumbled down the rabbit hole - I moved out of a communist and post-communist reality to seek a better future and now the country I moved into to achieve that is turning into what I initially escaped from. Fortunately my Polish passport is gaining value by the day. My old country is not only doing superbly on the economic front but because we won our independence after 200 years of constantly fighting for it using sheer f*king will, the this new socio-political sentiment that has been rising in the West for a while will never fly in Poland. We know the value of what we have now.

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Poland is super BASED, but need to leave the EU. Europe, and the rest of the west, is becoming a giant cesspool, and it will continue that path until the people do something.

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I agree to a degree but we have our difficult georgaphy and topography to consider. Poland occupies an indefensible piece of flat terrain sanwitched between Western Europe and Russia - alliances are necessary, at least for the forseeable future before we build ourselves up militarily to a level that is capable of deterring anyone around us from any imperialistic sentiments.

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Well middle America has your back Poland. While Biden and the deep state are busy funding wars in the middle east, I’m praying more and more little countries start standing up for their core values. Don’t let polish traditions and values get watered down from refugees and illegal immigrants, like the usa

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We already refused the middle eastern migrant quotas that the EU tried to foist on us. It’s like I said - Poles have held this indefensible piece of flat terrain in the heart of Europe for over a thousand years now. So far we literally didn’t have a single century go by without all sorts of major wars and minor conflicts and we’ve endured many attempts at absolute extermination, from the 18th century partitions right up to the Second World War. Throughout history we’ve been invaded and occupied by pretty much every single one of our geographical neighbours, but never truly defeated - I know this because we’re still here. Trust me, if there’s one nation on this planet that doesn’t take any s*it from anybody- its us. =] Our culture endured so much pain and suffering that there is no outside force in the world that we’ll let influence our future, unless it’s prepared to exterminate every single Polish man, woman and child.

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I’m more worried about the States tbh. I don’t know how much you know about our shared history but when we lost our homeland to partitions by a combined force of the Prussian, Austrian and Russian empires a lot of us went overseas to fight in the American Revolutionary War. I’d argue that we know the value of independence more than any other nation in the world. Back then, we were the second nation in the world to adopt a constitution because we looked at you guys and thought that this, then fledgeling nation, brought the world something worth protecting. Gen. Kazimierz Pułaski saved George Washington’s life for a reason and despite the fact that to a distant observer, USA today looks like a sociopolitical zoo, the political foundations it was created on are honorable and just. I hope you guys don’t let the American experiment go to waste.

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I don’t agree with everything that’s been said here in this thread, but I consider myself solidly middle-of-the-road and I believe that a lot of what you guys have said here makes sense.

I believe this to be absolutely true, especially in regards to the general theme (not only expressed in the quote above but also elsewhere in this thread) that there are a lot of US citizens who view the US as a country with a “glass half empty” viewpoint, rather than a “glass half full” mindset.

I believe the main difference between the left and the right in the US these days is that the left tends to view and assess our country by comparison against a utopian ideal of what they believe it could (and maybe even should) be, and the right tends to view and assess our country against the standard of the other countries in the world. The problem with the left’s view is that the utopian ideal does not exist and never will, and the problem with the right is that they seem to want to resist changing some things that in all likelihood do need changing.

I am not saying one of these views (left vs. right) is correct and one is incorrect, because I don’t believe that at all. I believe that both ends of the spectrum being balanced against the other is required in order for a nation to function effectively. The left helps put forward an agenda for how they believe we could effect change to make things better (at least in their opinions) and the right tries really hard to conserve (conservative - get it LOL) the things that it already exist in our society that it perceives as “good.”

It takes both sides to balance that seesaw! The problem comes when the pendulum swings too far one way or the other. In my personal opinion, the pendulum at the present in the US has swung too far left to be considered in any way palatable by the right, and even folks like me in the middle believe that the pendulum is swinging too far away from the middle.

I do believe the vast majority of people actually stand in the middle on most things, if you actually ask them what they think, as opposed to asking partisan political hot-button issues. Statistics tend to favor that assessment (bell curve and all - the extremes tend to be smaller numbers of people and the vast majority sit somewhere in the middle).

I love the United States! I think it is a fantastic place to live and would fight and die for it in a heartbeat if it were needed for me to protect it (as many people in all of our families have done - everyone knows someone who has served and possibly even someone who died in defense of our country). But for the first time in my life, I fear for my childrens’ futures - specifically that their lives seem to me to have at least a decent shot at not being as good as mine has been to this point.

Sorry for the rant. Just wanted to post so you guys know you’re not the only ones here on these forums concerned with the direction you see the US taking right now. It worries me each day.

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Does it worry anyone else that the current president just drooled over a 9 year old girl at his speech yesterday? Because I haven’t seen a single news outlet bring attention to it.

I fear most people in this country just don’t care that the officials they keep electing hate them. The big corporations, hate us. This country needs a massive rethink.

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No need to apologise, the matter is incredibly complex so long-winded opinions are to be expected. The thing that strikes me most about the American political system is its bi-partisan structure. You rarely ever see something like this in other democracies around the world. I think this dichotomy is what sets the American public against each other from the beginning of any sociopolitical conversation and reduces the approach to a lot of issues down to a black-or-white, whit-us-or-against-us attitude starting right at the cognitive level. It’s paradoxical to see a structure like this in a country that supposedly prides itself on diversity. In Europe, almost every state has a parliment (senate) occupied by many political parties, and even though you might argue that it slows down the efficiency of the political process itself, at least it doesn’t lead to very clear two-sided conflicts which I find are always dangerously on the edge of a revolution. Guess what I’m trying to say is that in Europe we switched that danger for the chaos of a lot of smaller conflicts, however this lets us retain relative peace across the board since taking clear sides isn’t that easy.

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I think all Western democracies do, but changing the system isn’t the way. Capitalism, for all it’s flaws, has brought the longest period of relative peace we ever enjoyed in the West so far, along with an unparalleded economic and scientific growth. Improving, rather than discarding it seems to me to be the more rational approach.

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The founding fathers were smart. What happened is eventually evil, bad intentioned politicians got power and somehow stayed in power. Cities like Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, Portland, st Louis, etc have been run by democrats for decades, if not generations. And the democrats still say the country is systemically racist. But they keep voting the same people in. Pelosi, feinstein, Schumer, Waters, etc etc. But it’s somehow Trump supporters faults.

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@NitroExpreSs I am not sure I agree that the issues we have in the US are due to the two-party system. For more than 200 years, it seemed to work about as well as any system that has ever existed in the history of the world - at least until it didn’t work, that is. I am certainly not saying the US didn’t have problems during the first 200 years of the country, because it most definitely did. But the system itself seemed to work pretty well based on what I know about US history.

I think it ultimately comes down to 2 issues: (1) the nature of people, and (2) too much government power. Human nature cannot be stopped, we can only hope to contain it (LOL), and the US has gotten too big and too powerful and there is too much money involved. Given those conditions, the outcomes that we are seeing right now are entirely predictable in my opinion. I don’t think the two-party system has anything to do with it. Or if it is partially to blame, the apportionment of blame to the party system would be minimal in my opinion.

But again, just my opinion, I don’t have the answers. Wish I did.

What I miss the most is being able to discuss my opinions in public for fear of being “cancelled.” Because that’s what the left is doing to people who don’t agree with them these days - and they aren’t just doing it to those on the right. They seem to be intolerant of anyone that doesn’t have the “correct” opinions, even if the “cancelled” people are on the left politically. That’s not the way a free society should be. You shouldn’t lose your job as a result of your political or social opinions. It doesn’t take a philosopher to deduce that nothing good comes of these types of tactics.

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I never said that the all issues US has are down to the bi-partisan system. I was poining out that this reality has a tendency to propagate a reductionist approach to many issues and clearly sets people apart by rigidly categorising them either on the left or on the right when the fact is that this in no way reflects the complexity of socio-political issues or any one person’s full range of political views. From a strictly psychological point of view it helps in forming large powerful groups that have no other enemies to go after except each other, which is clearly tearing the cultural structure of the country at the moment.

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I get it, I thought you were saying that was the source of the problems, and I don’t think it is. The issue as I see it with the party system is that there is no party that purports to represent the middle. Both of the parties have been dragged to their fringes at the moment.

I do agree somewhat with your assessment though, but I also think that having a single party or multiple parties necessarily would not obviously work any better, at least in my assessment. Kind of a “devil you know” thought process, I guess. To be fair, this is not just a US thing, as political polarization (at least political polarization as depicted in the media) is happening all over the world right now, and on both sides of the spectrum.

I say “as depicted in the media” because I believe that the overall level of political strife/polarization is being manipulated by the media for their benefit. It would be folly to argue that political polarization has not been increased by the actions of the 24-hour news networks. I believe the media and the politicians are the only two groups benefitting from the politicization of everything these days.

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Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Thing is though, as you pointed out, we can only hope to streamline our political systems within the confines of the human condition. Any attempt at a utopia is a road to tyranny. We should therefore accept certain amount of inefficiency in the decision-making and execution processes. Question is how do we get to a stage where we can all somewhat agree that it’s the most reasonable and logical outcome given the shortcomings of human nature followed by an acceptance of the realisation that any attempts to improve it from that point on would most likely destroy the work it took to get there. I don’t presume to have an answer as to how to reach that goal, but I believe such a point is achievable.

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The bold and italicized is the crux of the issue in my opinion. You boiled it down to its essence. The answer to helping curb unjustifiable police violence is not to get rid of the police - it’s to get rid of the “bad” police. The answer to corrupt, racist social and political institutions isn’t to get rid of them all - it’s to get rid of the bad stuff. You don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Getting rid of the police or other social and political institutions is a lazy, half-baked solution to a difficult problem, and it won’t work.

Everyone knows these things. These are common sense approaches and answers to our problems. The issue in my mind is that it doesn’t seem to me that there is much common sense being applied by either side of the spectrum these days. Compromise - where, definitionally, no one gets everything they want - is the bedrock of politics in a free society. There is not much compromise happening on either side.

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