Post weekend feedback of balance mod

It feels like the community is starting to gel with the changes. This weekend was less ‘hostile’ anyway feedback wise😉. But please give us your honest opinions. We are looking at and testing, and discussing every piece of feedback we get.

So bring the hate (and love!) what do you guys think so far? What’s troubling you? What else can we address?

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I think the mod is a definite step in the right direction. My biggest problem is that there are always so few people online who use the mod, so I’ve only been able to play 1 game against human opponents so far. I’ll keep popping into MP in hopes of doing more testing:)

And as someone pointed out already in another thread, research ships are insane damage sponges!

I also like the direction the mod is going. I can’t give too much valuable feedback because I’ve not played it against human opponents yet; just against the AI.

I love many of the changes to the Vaygr, and how they’ve made the Frigate class not such a trap to be avoided at all costs. I do miss the option for extra speed that made them such a good hit and run faction, though I appreciate that they are still the fastest overall.

I did notice that the gun damage put out by the Vaygr DD seems fairly incidental. I have a feeling in the back of my mind that the Heavy Missile mechanic the Vaygr use (rather than the ion mechanic) could leave them at a disadvantage overall due to delayed nature of their hard hitting damage. This is one reason why the Trinity Cannon was always so valuable; when it fired, it did damage. Conversely, the Heavy Missiles would self-destruct in mid flight if the firing ship died, so even if they launched it wasn’t guaranteed they would do damage during the life of the firing vessel.

I hope to give better balance feedback during this week as I’m getting enough confidence back to face human opponents :slight_smile:

I’m a pretty lousy player myself, don’t worry about it :wink:

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Really, really good point. So this still happens in hwr?

Hooooooly… something something. Okay, so, just got totally annihilated by a HW1 faction (not sure which one. The one with interceptors, defenders, light and heavy corvettes?) while I was playing Vaygr. They were able to totally overpower my 210 hp / 30 dps assault craft (500 RUs each) with their 160 hp / 43 dps Interceptors… which they were able to buy at 100 RUs each. They honestly seemed to take out my squadrons when we had almost even numbers (he had more slightly) and it just snowballed out of control from there.

Screenie for good measure: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=510209450

I have to wonder after playing several times, if you are hw2 race, does it even pay to have fighters anymore? Not sure if it’s just me, but fighters just seem unnecessary now? Like I said, I could wrong,but that’s the feel I’m getting.

The Vaygr assault frigates are pretty op. Only a handful of them would clean out that entire swarm.

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Thankfully, is seems that the heavy missiles will still track and hit after the shooting unit dies in HW:R :slight_smile:

Guess I’ll have to try those out next time. Would have to be more than “a handful” though, since 4-6 of them were utterly annihilated by that swarm before the pic was taken.

when fighting HW1 strike craft you had to play to your advantages. You flagship guns are really good at taking out fighters (by design), and you want to be as close to your dock as you can.

The advantage the HW1 player has is he can be precise targeting down one squad at a time, where you have only everything to target.

So the micro is important on both sides, you have to be graceful, using speed to your advantage to bring the fight home to you. The further away he is from reinforcements, the harder it will be for HW1 to get and maintain the upper hand.

Another thing to look for is the supply line itself, when you look up you’ll see a line of fighters coming from his production. Slip one squadren behind the main body and you can pick off and cut off that supply line. If you see the swarm turn to that squad, break off an try to make them chase. That will give your home force time to dock and re supply.

Not saying this easy. HW1 is the rush race. For you it is about survival. But if he puts everything he has into his swarm early, he’s probably cutting in other places like research, he’ll eventually lose the upper hand if he tries to sustain vs a good counter swarmer for too long.

The Assault frigates are pretty good against fighters, but you can’t get them at the start of the game because of the cost:

[quote]Research module - 500
Frigate research - 1800
Frigate facility - 900
Assault frigate research - 500
Assault Frigate - 650[/quote]

That’s 4350 RU to get 1 assault frigate out.

Missile corvettes are a bit easier at only:

[quote]corvette chassis - 500
corvetted facility - 725
missile corevette - 625[/quote]
or 1850 RU to get your first one out.

Vaygr’s advantage lays in their ability to reinforce their sqauds, so they need their speed to get away, or stay close to a carrier/mother ship. I need to play against human opponents though to get a feel for the current balance >.<

Defenders are like gun platforms. Avoid them as they shred fighters (hw1 now has a unit cap of 20 defenders fyi). Light corvettes are also anti fighter corvettes like gunships. You’ll need missile corvettes or assault frigs to deal with these. Lance fighters should be decent vs light vettes too.

Ratamaq has some good points. Also remember to dock some damaged fighters for repairs. And as Vaygr you can use EMP scouts to disable fighters and corvettes. hw1 swarm is strong now, but hopefully not too strong if handled right.

Feels as though the hw2 fighters are pretty useless now. People can seem to just skip them altogether and not even think twice about them. I’ve heard multiple complaints from people about this as well.

Micromanaging hw2 fighters against a swarm of hw1 fighters seems to be just an exercise in futility, especially if you have managed to make the swarm more op. Why would a player concentrate so hard and spend so much time micromanaging fighters when he could be dedicating his time and resources to something else more effective in the mid to long run?

To be fair, there are individuals that have played the vanilla consistently with hw1 and have won practically 100% of the time, specifically in 1v1’s. So it is difficult for me to understand why there would be adjustments to make them even more powerful.

Ya this is being addressed, and we’ve been aware of it for a while. We were just trying to find the best solution. It should be better in the next update.

Ya that was my first thought when I saw the changes. But the reasons why hw1 was doing so well in small map 1v1s have been addressed with several changes. Defender unit cap, MS minimum hyperspace jump cost increase, Gunships that are actually good, and many other changes. Me and Kadeshi have been getting pretty balanced results in our 1v1 tests. And we both play all 4 races. Still needs more testing of course. Id like to try some 1v1s vs people who were dominating with hw1 on Sheild.

how do check out clean unit A vs. unit B fights?
is there something like a “cheat” sandbox mode against the CPU where i can spawn certain enemy units in the running game?

i have troubles to clearly watch the effectiveness of specific types of units

Maybe you and Kadeshi, or you and I can record some swarm battles on shield and post them from our respective points of view to demonstrate how much is involved/required from both sides.

To a HW1 player getting owned by a HW2 player you hear cries of no formations and fighter squad replenishment. From HW2 you hear about the massive swarm of hornets that seem to never end.

What both sides need to realize is there is front end and back end management involved. It’s not as easy as sending in fighters and bandbox attack for either side.

Sounds like you’d need to try and approach an even battle a few times, each time using different forms of micro to see what impacts the outcome? O.o

There is a lot of variables between band box and micro.

Theoretically, even RU fighters should be a wash band box to band box. When trying to test actual game play it gets a little more difficult. We are pretty confident in production test (who can stand up what when) more variables then straight up band box of even units, but still requires lots of test (what if I start with 20 scouts in the mix, what if I stall research after fighter drive for 1 minute) and on the HW2 side ( what if I stall the second fighter fac to squeeze out 1 more worker, how long can I stall upgrades? What if I manage to work an FTC in?)

It’s the actual micro battle that adds the most variables because frankly skill is always going to play a big factor. There is the test of ru vs ru micro management, then the full out bring your best game on a map like shield. Playing each other isn’t enough because we learn each other. There will always be a more pronounced handicap on the balance the less people you have test skill wise. So we need everyone to play (AND TEST) as much as they may. Beta tester remember? I had a HW2 guy flat own me on shield the other day with inties and Torps. He would not engage unless he could gain without loss. Just constant pokes and pulls that HW2 units can get away with much easier than HW1 units.

But even that doesn’t paint the whole picture. Shield is a different variable then fighting over a patch on wreck, or the side patch on dust clouds. What is balanced for fights that take place with production ships 30k apart isn’t the same as balance with production ships 50k apart.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how your war philosophy goes) this game is asymmetric and not everything will be balanced in all situations all the time. Part of any good strategy game depends on this. Other wise we might as well play turn based or roll dice in a board game.

Btw, we have lance fighters owning light and heavy vettes. It’s mutil-guns that lance fighters can’t take down. The multis sustain heavy losses on that first pass, but after that the mutlties slip ahead.

The opposite is true for laser vettes vs HW1 assault frigates. Lasers will take heavy losses, but decisively win.

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