according to your list just about EVERYBODY is viable in this meta which contrary to your belief is a good thing. Also, ernest may be the king of wave clear, but that would make your statement here just as true for meltdown, so your contradicting yourself. he can control a point just as well if you let him. not to mention ernest is one of the easiest to kill since his only mobility is the self knockback on his charge. those fights where nothing happens? there isn’t really nothing happening, you just have tunnel vision. many many many things are going on that are contributing to who wins that war for momentum. they may have 4v5 atm because someone ran back to get the thrall and elite, you may be pushing forward a bit and thinking your doing good, but then the thrall and elite get there and you’re immediately pushed back because of the pressure. someboday ma be slipping out for a sec to steal the double thralls. somebody may be grabbing that last bit of shards to activate there legendary gear. most of these so called stalemates come from lack of coordination, and that is not something that is specific to Incursion. if your hitting the Gali while the miko and alani are free to heal, your not going to be making any progress.
It’s the same theory in overwatch, you defend the choke, coordinate your offense, try to score the pick, and when you do, push forward and take the 5v4 fight to them. Most teams will get a kill and first thing they think is “ok they’re gone now, got to defend” when they really really need to push that advantage. again, this is not something specific to Incursion, its just easier in meltdown because with the player gone from the lane (like i said) the flow of the game will naturally pull you towards the grinders. whereas people in incursion will go back (instead of pushing forward) to help teammates on enemies whoare stalling them, instead of the team pushing through them and taking the fight to mid, or to the enemy sentry which gives the other team enough time to respawn and resume the “stalemate”
Also, this theory of “you do this, so you must either be losing or playing bad people because your opinion doesn’t match mine” amuses me. take this example. two minion waves meet at the middle of the lane. no players there. they kill each other, no points. two waves meet again, with a player on one side and none on the other. the player kills the other sides minions, his get through. third scenario, minions meet at the middle, a player on each side, one player kills the other, his minions get through (providing any survived the fight) and the lane is now clear for more minions till respawn. If you do not get the tactical advantage of killing the enemy team, I cannot put it any more clearly than that.
My initial comment had rather poor wording to it, @BenHoliday sums up what I was trying to convey with that.
Ernest’s weakness is that he is incredibly squishy and easy to focus down… but those weaknesses are completely negated when you have 4 teamates constantly defending him. Also, Ernest can’t defend two lanes at once. Play against a good Ernest on Meltdown vs Incursion and you’ll start to notice that he’s exponentially easier to deal with because it’s much easier to catch him by himself.
Every time someone has attempted to do this against me, it rarely works in their favor. Even when they do manage to sneak the thralls past me, by that point their team is probably down a few members and the time lost from them sitting in respawn vastly outweighs the time spent killing the thralls with laughably easy to hit crit spots that pretty much negate their inherit large health pool. Same applies to giant minions. The way that Thralls currently work makes them only really useful when a few enemy players are down since they’re so pathetically easy to kill when all 5 players are up that it’s often not even worth the time spent grabbing them if you’re already in lane.
Or perhaps it’s because both teams are very coordinated. Think about it, if you want to kill the Miko that’s hiding behind the Gali, you have to get past her, her desecrate, her stun, dodge the Miko stun/slow, and manage to kill her/her/it and get out safely before the entire team can finish you off. And coordinated strikes don’t really work when there is so much anti initiation in the game. If your team goes in for a group strike, what’s stopping Gali from just pressing E, pulling everyone into her, having Ernest ult on top of her, and winning the team fight? There are so many situations in incursion where there really isn’t anything you or your team can do because it’s way too easy for the enemy team to turn your initiation back around and wipe. The same applies to the enemy team, they can’t really go all in because it’s far too risky for them. This is what causes the stalemate. Both teams are just waiting for someone to move out of position so that they can get a pick and collapse on it for a sentry or two. Meltdown on the other hand, has two lanes which are much shorter than Incursion’s, have less people to defend each lane, and provide instant results when the minions reach their destination. Because of this, killing minions as quickly as possible are a much greater priority because of how quickly they can score for a team. This also emphasizes lane rotation, the first side to clear their minions should immediately rotate to the other lane to assist with a gank or lane reset.
Here’s a counter example: It’s the beginning of a match, Player A and Player B are on opposite sides of the lane, minions meet in the midde, Player A decides to run straight past the minions and immediately attack Player B. Player B has the advantage of an accelerator which makes Player A’s advancement much more difficult. Player A is either killed or forced to retreat. Player A wasted his time on a pointless assault and now has to retreat back to his side of the lane, which wastes even more time, and now likely has to defend against both an enemy minion wave and Player B at the same time with no ally minions left. Player A will not be able to handle the pressure and will either be killed or forced to back up and let Player B score.
What Player A should have done in that situation was run straight for the stinger turret and purchase that, use the extra pressure from the stinger and his own damage output to clear the wave faster than Player B. Player B will now be forced to move a bit out of position in order to deal with the oncoming minion wave. Player A can now use this opportunity to begin his attack now that Player B left the safety of his accelerator. And even if Player B was adamant about staying under the accelerator, all it would take is a bit of aggressive action to get him to back up a little bit and you get the entire minion wave in for free. Since Player A only has to worry about one factor attacking his minion waves (that of which being Player B), he can focus on that single source of damage and force it out for free points. Obviously there are other variables such as enemy ganks and the fact that there are usually two or three people in a lane when minions are up, but the same principal still applies. In a 2v2 lane, you typically want to finish off the minions first, then focus down on a single target depending on who would be quicker and easier to kill and use the 2v1 advantage to apply pressure to the last enemy player in your lane. 3v3 works a bit differently because there are multiple factors in play due to the additional player (which is usually the support), but it still requires fast lane clear and using cc to isolate a single target and get a 3v2 advantage on the lane. Lane ganks are also a factor, but again, if you kill the minions first, and your teammates call out the enemy gank, you can collapse on his rotation and get a easy pick while your opposing lane partners are still struggling with the wave.
Again, bad wording, Though someone already responded to you with what I was trying to say in that post.
Go back to twitch trolling dwaf (though in all seriousness of course I’m bias, as is everyone in this discussion. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that since if we were all indifferent to this topic it wouldn’t really be a discussion at all).
If the other player has backed up all the way to the accelerator, your goal is pretty much succeeded already, the player isn’t in the lane and their minions die. you assume the best possible scenario for one player and than make it so the player representing the option you disagree with looks bad. It is quite easy to flank from the side of someone while the minions are fighting and take the player out. if playing someone with high mobility you can even come from behind. It is the very fact that there is 2 lanes and teams have to split up that you CAN focus on removing the players from the lane because as even you say, the teams are split up and you cannot count on back up. the players in that lane goes down and now, those minions either get through or they have to pull more people from the other lane making that lane weaker to stall.
you say the thralls are easy to kill, but the amount of times I’ve seen a game turn due to the added pressure of well timed thralls wilth a minion wave and overshields, sure you can kill them, but a lot of the time the issue is you can’t kill them fast enough. the enemy team gains a lot of ground behind them and once the thralls are down you now still have to worry about the entire enemy team. you also assume for some reason the player died while getting them, which is a bad assumption. Lastly you also mention the elite. the elite is hands down the best additional pressure in the game. I have won many games by going back to our sentry and continously pushing out that thrall and elite as soon as they’re off cooldown. it does a lot of damage, has a crap ton of health, can be healed, and any damage it is taking is damage you are not doing to the enemy team. the only time the elite minion is not an effective play is if it is not given any support and the enemy team is allowed to focus it. hell, even in those cases the elite most of the time is able to make it to the choke point of the sentry. the spawn point of the elite minion should ALWAYS be on cooldown
He has a lot of health, a semi decent escape, a not too large hitbox and a legendary that gives not too bad lifesteal (those not being allowed in more competitive enterprises is irrelevant). He may be squishy due to easy crits but he is NOT incredibly squishy
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semi decent escape? His YOLO helix one explosion? I dunno if I would call that semi decent…a couple of notches below. When you trap an ernest, his goose is cooked (or chicken or whatever he is)
I assume both players have equal skill, which was what my argument was based off of in the first place.
But doing that will abandon your own lane, which forces your team into either a 1v2 or 2v3 depending on which lane you left. Ganks are only advisable when you can afford to leave lane without putting your team in a bad position. Unless you’re talking about flanks on your own lane, which is inadvisable since you should always be paying attention to your lane opponents and immediately take action once one of them goes missing.
Aside from the fact that the lanes are so condensed that it is entirely possible that attacking players will force the enemy minions to shift focus onto you and likely get you killed as a result thanks to the minion buff, There should always be multiple people of the same team in a lane when minions are present. This means that you indeed CAN count on backup but not enough to the point where it grants far too little opportunities for initiation against the enemy team. And while yes, there is a tactical advantage to attacking enemy players instead of minions, the situations where those are effective only apply when the enemy is either out of position, low enough on health to the point where you can burst them down before they have a chance to react, or when you have a numbers advantage. Blindly diving into a fight against equally skilled players won’t do you any good when they have the terrain advantage(accelerators, the fact that your shepherd is further away than theirs, and that they can see you coming and react accordingly).
There have been numerous times where I’ve been the only one against two mid thralls right at my Sentry’s front door and I’ve killed them before they could barely even chip his shield. Backup has only really been necessary when they’ve got a full minion wave with them, but even then it isn’t hard to kill them all as long as you have a full team. Having a full minion wave + thralls against 3 or less players is obviously difficult to deal with, but in those situations it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility to just have everyone dive sentry with their ults (especially late game because the Sentry doesn’t scale), and finish it off by the time mid thralls have arrived.
Can you quote exactly where this came from? Because I can’t find anything. The closest I could find was this.[quote=“ZombiePizzaMan, post:26, topic:1552350”]
by that point their team is probably down a few members and the time lost from them sitting in respawn vastly outweighs the time spent killing the thralls
Which isn’t what I meant by that at all. What I meant was, when someone leaves a 5v5 scenario to grab thralls, it’s very likely that the enemy team will take that opportunity to collapse in on the opposing team and pick up a few free kills. The time that these guys spend in respawn(not the person grabbing them, though the possibility of getting randomly nuked for 2.5k damage by the mid thralls is something to note) is significantly greater (especially late game) than the time it takes to kill those thralls. Grabbing thralls when all 5 of the opposing team is up basically forces your team to give up ground for something that might be able to earn it back. The Bonecrusher is a bit of an exception, but only when grabbing him is convenient since leaving lane just to go all the way back and grab the Bonecrusher isn’t a very good idea unless you were going to back to base anyways. Doing anything else is far too risky for only the possibility of pushing up the lane.
Of course giant minions are useful, in fact, I’d rate them to be more useful than the thralls because of ease if access and that they take way less time to actually spawn, but I wouldn’t necessarily consider it a super tactical decision to grab a shard gen and a wrench and pump out as many giants as possible. Additionally, if both teams were to continuously pop out giant minions on cooldown, then the whole point of it being a viable asset for pushes and breaking stalemates is kinda negated when all that’s happened is that both minion waves have one additional member. Spamming elites is a common strategy on meltdown too. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, since it’s obviously very effective, but it’s not really something I would consider a real tactical feat when it’s something you should be doing 9 times out of 10 anyways.