So what happens when players complain that 4 Salvadors on a team are unfair and Gearbox nerfs Gunzerking duration, or Money Shot, or Fire Rate buffs, etc.?
Or they say that Maya running Pimpernel and Chain Reaction is unfair and they need to reduce the number of secondary projectiles from 5 to 3, or remove splash damage?
Just because itâs indirect competition doesnât mean that some players wonât find reason to complain about overpowered combinations.
Unique characters would solve half that issue. The others donât have to be nerfed unless the developers find it necessary for PvE. They could do the opposite of what battleborn and destiny have done. Some players will always complain about things not being âfairâ anyway.
Create their excellent PvE experience but bring it to life with competition. Make us feel like we are real vault hunters and out to discover something valuable. Donât let those moonshotting Hyperion Jerkbags get there first.
Borderlands 3 has to be way more than the standard set with BL2. A lot of people were upset with TPS, saying it should have been a dlc, even though there were several new game mechanics.
Thatâs true people tend to complain just like over on the Bungie forum and Iâm sure itâs similar concerning games like Overwatch. It was just a interesting idea this gentleman presented. Branching away from traditional pvp and doing something different. Itd be no different than say 3 or 4 sirens on a team. Well even if the idea of this doesnât work Iâm pretty optimistic if they stick with whatâs been working for them with Bl2 and a bit of bl1 and come up with a few other ideas itâll be fun.
I still say no, any time you have any kind of PVP you have balance issues, just donât do any. I even want them to get rid of duals.
Not every game needs to be PVP, Borderlands is made better by not being PVP. There are plenty of PVP games out there, Borderlands doesnât have to join that. I want them to get weirder not more normal.
I wish more developers/publishers realized this.
Iâm just going to vote no to PVP and keep insane character skills and weapons.
Borderlands 3 can learn from The Division and Destiny by not adding PvP. Didnât play The Division much, but with Destiny the failure of mixing in PvP with PvE has meant:
Sniper rifles get massive flinch for the wielder because crybabies like to challenge snipers with auto rifles outside of their intended range etc. This just makes PvE content like raids and strikes tedious than difficult. Many of these crybabies would be failing The Warpriest battle in Kingâs Fall if the flinch increase came sooner because these people usually have the game IQ to clear âaddsâ, which is why they get picked off from snipers too easily and cry. Thereâs a reason why shotguns are the dominant special weapon in Destiny during the highest level of play. To illustrate how much Bungie has handheld crybabies, two exotic sniper rifles give off scope glare - the No Land Beyond, which uses iron sights, and Patience & Time, that cloaks you as its exotic feature, making its cloaking feature pointless for PvP.
Range of shotgunsâ OHK range mean theyâre uninspiring to use in PvE. So you might as well overuse a sniper rifle. The Golgoroth boss fight in Kingâs Fall was designed for shotgun use, but the range required for shotguns and damage output meant that you could only use The Chaperone for all six fireteam members, an exotic that is not too widely available. Other shotguns will just fail this stage.
The Vex Mythoclast was pretty outrageous in PvP during the first few weeks of Destiny but nobody serious uses it in PvP or PvE now. Continually nerfed partly because people who were killed by it donât have it.
Guns like Thorn get left behind with the introduction of higher level caps so that it is not used in Trials of Osiris and Iron Banner. So you canât even use it in current PvE if you wanted as its damage is too low. This was a powerful gun but so was The Last Word, but that got nerfed far later than it should have been.
Continuing to use Destiny as an example of how difficult it is to balance PvE and PvP, there are a few key issues that come to mind:
Weapon and class balancing is based off of performance in PvP, and only rarely based on PvE reasons. So if you have a weapon or particular skill or ability that is performing well above the average in PvP you can expect to see a re-balancing to bring it in line with other weapons or comparable skills (e.g, Super, melee, and grenade). The overall goal is to let every player feel like they can compete with any weapon or subclass that they choose. While there are always going to be outliers that become top tier, I think itâs largely been successful for PvP but has really made specific aspects of PvE much more challenging, in particular the Raids.
Bungie balances with a general time-to-kill and specific range/role for each weapon in mind. For example, they donât want primary weapons killing so fast that you have zero chance to react and/or recover from getting hit first. So they lower the damage (precision and body) or damage falloff so that you arenât using a weapon outside of its intended range. Another example is when they first addressed sniper rifles dominance in PvP they looked at the percentage of kills they constituted in the most competitive playlist and addressed them by reducing Special ammo drops during matches as well as sniper rifle reserves. This really had little impact on PvP and ended up hurting PvE even more directly than was intended.
They factor in popularity and/or complaints as a basis for balancing. The goal is to make the player feel like they can take any weapon or class into PvP and be successful. They do this even if it goes against their own intentions behind the design or purpose of a skill or weapon. For example, a Sunsinger Warlockâs Burn damage (DoT) defined the subclass with the purpose of being able to push back and disrupt a high Armored or aggressive opponents health recovery and ability to get back into the fight. It forced retreats as well as opened up counterattacks. Even though the subclassâ success was mostly limited to one playlist it was gutted completely mostly because of player complaints.
When I play Borderlands, I want to experiment with a lot of different skills and weapons and essentially come up with some overpowered combination that is fun and exciting to use. This would never happen in a Borderlands with PvP unless Gearbox completely simplified character and weapon design for the sake of maintaining fairness in a PvP environment.
RIP Achlyophage Symbiote, the only Gunslinger exotic worth using in year 1. Same thing happened to Young Ahamkaraâs Spine when it got buffed to make it a competitive choice, but the tripmine grenades got nerfed as a result. Apparently, enough Warlocks donât see an imitation patrol beacon in PvP to dodge them to justify their nerf.
Regarding Sunsingers, I think their main problem was that Bungie allowed repeating subclasses in Trials of Osiris. Bungie could have increased the tick rate to damage over time with firebolt grenades. The thing is that triple Sunsingers were too powerful in Trials of Osiris. Their win rate was something like 84%, which is a tad ridiculous. More frequent balances could have meant smaller steps to prevent nerfs being overdone.
Thatâs simultaneous PVE. Why not just do it for high scores? Also, having damage taken be a factor would be terrible. Tanks and evasion would be impossible to balance. Time would have to be the main factor
Noooooooope. Theyâre probably going to innovate, but they donât need to. Presequel hate was due to to a lot more than it not changing enough things. Actually, through the Grinder, cryo, oz, and lasers, this game changed a lot. Not that people necessarily liked although I loved it all. I love everything. Everythingâs great
Eh, I want them to remove duel based items, but Iâm okay with them. Good way to settle bets, who gets what item, how OP Krieg is, etc
High scores would lead towards just a leaderboard feeling. I was hoping for a mode that would recreate a TFTBL experience where two rival gangs are chasing a vault key or something valuable.
Im no game developer, just trying to say PvP could be a viable option in a Borderlands game. Well my hopes for it anyway.
Ah okay. I read later posts where you mentioned interactions and that could be interesting. Like if you could trigger a trap to make your opponents fight something or move on faster yourself
But as we both discussed last night, things such as supers are either far too weak, or too strong. Even the conspiracy theory still hits like a Mack truck if you hit that first initial shot. Then of course you have the lower rate of fire autos and pulses not being able to keep up with say scouts or other weapons in their archetype. There is definite balancing issues in Destiny that are still not being looked into thorough enough. Even ROI hasnât addressed it as much as it should. I do think borderlands after Iâve really thought about it needs to stay away from direct pvp gameplay. I would like to see a boss rush mode or something, or survival.
To me the grinder was a big mistake and it shouldnt come back, ever.
