Questions on Balancing, Nerfing / Buffing, And More!

Ok so complaints about weird / random / minor / unnecessary buffs / nerfs to mostly niche / high skill cap characters seem to be growing weekly, as well as complaints about why certain easy to use / “God mode / easy mode” characters rarely get touched except in the most rudimentary of ways?

Why does Galilea still have virtually all the CCs in the game as well as frightening damage output and Survivability?

Why does almost every single player I know at ANY skill level absolutely DREAD going up against unkillable Boldur, who can also pull out some nightmarish offence in skilled hands?

Why do teams facing BEATRIX still spend the majority of the match impotently stunned?

Why can ERNEST still just fire indiscriminately down lane for endless assists and slow wads of enemies at once?

Why can Orendi still pop her Ult like, well, like popcorn and ALSO team wipe with one button press at level 10?

And then niche / high skill cap characters like Mellka, El Dragon and ISIC become increasingly harder to use?

I’m no numbers cruncher and, even though I’ve lore challenge mastered every character, I am not super knowledgeable about skills and synergies.

Nor did I read Battleplans before 5 or 6 ago.

What happen if Gali and Boldur and Orendi were to be nerfed to the bone?

Would there be a huge public outcry?

Do games like Battleborn NEED their “easy mode” characters for those people who just want to pick up and wreck with Gali rather than having to learn how to sling skills together like El Dragon / Mellka?

What kind of balance changes would ACTUALLY satisfy people?

Please help me understand.

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Uhhhh…what?

That’s not very helpful.

More detail or less sarcasm, please.

@wisecarver

Who do you think you are? Telling filthy to go to rehab. Bah. How will he continue to function without battle born and alcohol?

I got your back filthy :wink:

I would not be able to function, Nemo!

@nemosis327

Honestly, though, I am legitimately just trying to understand the situation better as it stands right now.

I don’t really get what you’re driving at here.

Are you asking the Devs? The community can’t answer most of these questions because they all require inside knowledge of GBX. Why not tag the Devs who actively post here in that case?

At least on one point, there is an easily answerable question here: would people complain if characters generally considered to be overpowered were nerfed? Yes, they would and already have. See: Galilea and Benedict nerfs.

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I guess im just frustrated more than anything.

And I know I only recently started even somewhat paying attention to all this stuff so I feel like I’m missing out on vital info.

@Master_Oddjob

The issue isn’t just the “lack” of nerfs, it’s the lack of consistency throughout, because reworks have been promised for a WHILE on Galilea

The biggest contributing factor to the discontent I’ve seen is the almost total comm silence from the balance team. The only devs I’ve seen reply in here at all are Joe, jythri and Dante and while they are good people they are the middlemen for the most part(nothing against them for that of course)

And some of the things they state for a character end up running against the hard facts of what they did,

I’ll beat a dead horse because it’s such an easy example(with the sole exception of the last battle plan buffing claw lunge and) mellka, she’s encouraged to fight in melee range but has such a low base health that melee range is suicidal quite often,

or perhaps one wishes to argue that her agility is the big factor?

… Well as the movement speed tests showed mellka is actually slower than most other characters…

There’s things wrong but it isn’t necessarily a "they need to make X character do Y damage, it’s more of a “communicate the plan instead of wait and see because if it’s wait and see it better be a damn good surprise or folks will get tired of it”

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Making a second post here to add something that @AForestTroll said in the battle plan thread that actually might be able to explain the glaring differences in perspective we are experiencing

@FlamesForAll when we all played together we were(mostly) drinking, joking and having shenanigans moments

This presents us with a vastly different perspective from solo que People who had nothing but the game experience itself to leaven an impression on them.

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@loving-hatred

Yeah, I mean it’s undeniably true.

It’s exactly why in the later part of last year I STOPPED solo queueing and made the chat!

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But the big chats for grouping up seem to have become a double edged sword, they help but at the same time they harm as well

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I think about that ALL THE TIME!

But, I can choose to have fun how I want in the game I choose to devote my free time to, right?

@loving-hatred

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Oh I didn’t mean to imply any fault with that @FlamesForAll, it was more of a “sometimes we can’t anticipate the outcomes of what we do” all you did was nudge a pebble that is creating an avalanche now

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Ouch that makes me feel kinda guilty!

@loving-hatred

Grouping up isn’t an issue at all. If anything, it’s encouraged. It’s great to play with friends and you know, have fun? My main point is that people who do tend to group up regularly don’t see as many issues with that game because they are too busy having fun “together”. When you’re on your own, you sort of have your own company. You have less to do other than focus purely on game, since you have no external factors like group chat and whatnot distracting you. You tend to notice more when playing solo. Keeping in mind that Battleborn in the eyes of the gaming community in general is considered a failure.

For example, I told one of my guild members in FFXIV that I had just finished playing Battleborn, their response was “Battleborn? You mean that game that basically died on release? XD!”. So, as you’d imagine, you’d see more solo players in general due to some people taking a keen interest in the game, but not their friends who may rather stick to Battlefield, CoD or Overwatch due to the twisted misconceptions of BB. So, they enter solo. They come against a pre made group (which by the way should be normal and there should be no issues with pre made groups in a team based games like this) and they get stomped, several times. Their opinion of the game drops as they can finally see what “other people are talking about” and ditch Battleborn. While they do that, pre made groups who are having a blast are still running rampant to this day and, as I’ve said before, don’t see as many issues as the ones who enter solo, or who are new to the game.

Sorry, as for character balancing, I could write a few more paragraphs. If you want me to elaborate, I shall.

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@aforesttroll

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts!

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He who screams loudest is heard.

Also, it seems to be a core case of confusing a character being overpowered versus a character against whom you simply don’t know how to fight. You see it fighting games all the time. To wit, even Day 1 Overwatch suffered the same thing (Bastion anyone?). And now that there were a lot of complaints about how certain characters seem under/overperforming, that’s how you get incidents like Ana getting nerfed for no goddamn reason (which was quickly - and wisely - undone) and characters like Bastion and now Symmetra being able to - and I’m using a medical term here - ■■■■ your ■■■■ all up.

Some changes were necessary, as much as I may hate some of them due to some of my favorite character’s being affected. Attikus once had one of the best ultimates in the game. Galilea got some minor speed and damage nerfs. Alani… okay, Day 1 Alani was just nuts.

Game balance is hard, I get that. But the major point of contention that many developers - our dear GBX included - don’t seem to realize is that if the wrong character is hit with the wrong adjustment (coughs), the fanbase is actually going to question if you know what you’re doing. While admittedly going for the low-hanging fruit on this one, I don’t play Mellka at all, and even I found her adjustments to be nothing short of baffling.

But our illustrious community being in the somewhat fractured state it’s in right now, again: he who screams loudest is heard.

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As far as the nerfs goes, I really haven’t got much to say as that seems more for those who are displeased with the meta and/or devs.

I certainly think it’s healthy to have a variety of characters of different skill levels. However, they’re not necessarily sstandardised. I’d argue that Kelvin, Mellka and Miko in some sense requires more skill than Galilea, but I’m way better with those three over Galilea myself because of personal preference. So while she may technically be easy, there’ll aleays be ones who will find more difficult chaacters easier and easier characters to be difficult.

After all, just because a character is easy doesn’t make the game itself easy.

This is what I’m missing from a lot of feedback regarding balance changes. A lot call for balance changes but rarely (from what I see/hear) specify what they want to change.

Galilea needs a nerf!
How? What aspect? What ability? In what sense? To which degree?

Of course you can’t specify everything, but you can try. I know I usually try. A couple of examples being Benedict and Ernest.

I’ve wanted a modest health boost to Benedict (100-150) and reduced tracking on his tracking rockets so you can’t aim in the opposite direction and still hit the target.

I’d like for Ernest to have his damage reverted, but add a max duration/distance for the grenades so he can’t lob them across the map, reduce the AoE of it and the hitbox if possible as well. I can’t specify values as I’m not someone who handles balancing (or math :sweat_smile:) anywhere, but when I do call for balace changes I try to specify what I consider to be the problem and how one could go about fixing them.

It’d be interesting to have more constructive feedback as to what could be adressed in what manners.

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@SirWalrusCrow

Bravo!

Exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for and exactly the kind of info I wish people would post along with their balance requests.

Thank you.

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A bit of an addendum to both my own post and those of some others, I came across this video on YouTube. While the focus is fighting games, I believe many of the same topics can be expanded to just about any competitive game you can think of.

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On character balancing? I’ll try to give an opinion on each hero, but most of it will probably be stuff you’ve heard before.

Alani - she’s in a good spot IMO. She does her job as a combat healer. Her CC at release was just a bit “too” strong, but other than that, the changes she’s gone through have mostly been for the better.

Ambra - not much of an opinion on her since I haven’t touched her recently. There is reason for that though. The way she deals damage doesn’t really satisfy me anymore. She is territorial so her melee strikes punish people who get close, yet most Ambra seem to favour latching the beam and praying you die. Just like BETA. Her healing is great and she is versatile in that area. I will always find her ultimate lacking ever since they removed the slow effect. Personal preference.

Attikus - always felt far too squishy to me. I could never consistently land hits unless enemy players weren’t very smart and being outnumbered always results in death, yet other defenders seem to have a better chance. His leap felt as though it should have had a lower cooldown, for initiation AND escape. He really shines late game, but I can never make him work early game, and end up bringing the team down. Maybe that’s just me though.

Beatrix - she’s great, I’ve had no problems playing as her or against her. I’ve seen that they are adjusting her silence since it’s apparently a bit too powerful on multiple targets but again, I never really saw that issue. Her damage is in a good spot, although I find myself using her primary fire more than her scoped shots. shes a great Anti-healer and performs her role well.

Benedict - he seems more balanced now than before, since I’ve seen him get picked far less, yet still remain decently powerful. Hawkeye is annoying, but necessary as…what else would he have? It’s a great counter to fast moving squishy heroes.

Boldur - well, he’s a defender, so it’s only fair that he can absorb damage…but that much? In comparison to Attikus for example? Sure he has a shield and Attikus doesn’t. But between the two, as a defender, boldur seems like the blatantly obvious choice. I feel that some helix choices give him unnecessary survivability options, like an overshield…mainly.

Caldarius - he’s a good skirmisher and harasser, not much more to say really. I don’t feel as though he is unbalanced at all. He performs his role well.

Deande - I can’t really say much about her. She seems fairly balanced and I’ve not really had any issues playing as her or against her.

El Dragón - before the nerf hammer, he was very good in the hands of players who had a fair amount of skill. He died after that, and as for adjustments they’ve made after, I’m not sure. I never paid much attention to him.

Ernest - incredibly annoying to fight against if they know “how” to spam grenades. Regardless of the damage, the constant barrage of grenades results in area denial. His egg is incredibly useful, if not maybe a bit TOO useful.

Galilea - no comment, we already know where I’m going with this. She had her ups and dow- no, just ups. She’s had her ups and ups, especially during BETA.

Ghalt - I have no issue with him. I prefer his slow to his outright stun as its overall less gimmicky and fairer for the victim. His shotgun does its job, he disrupts with his chain and his ultimate is decent.

ISIC - looks strong and feels strong for a while, but something just feels like it’s missing and I don’t know what it is. Survivability? Damage? I’m not sure.

Kelvin - great in the survivability department and works well in a team who can make use of his chain stun/slow. Building his health over time sounds great, but when you see a Kelvin with an…incredibly large health bar, things start not looking so good. That doesn’t happen often anyway. Which is good I guess. He’s great in the hands of people who really know how to utilise his entire kit.

Kid Ultra - underrated in my opinion. He was one of my strongest heroes but I never felt OP. well, after the nerf to his multi stun bouncing bolas. Good wave clear assistance, some decent CC, healing drones are decent and his ult can save lives.

Kleese - oh god, not only do the in game characters hate him, but a lot of people here do also. His taser and rift camping are really the only issues. If a team builds around him, they benefit him and he benifits them. The nerfs to him have helped though, but I’m not sure what else they could do for him.

Marquis - personal issue I guess. I was just getting the hang of him before they nerfed his base damage. I had no issue with it. He is a sniper after all. Taking into account that his shots don’t land instantly, it wasn’t exactly easy to kill players, so the damage compensated. Now I feel more like I just help deal damage and finish people off. Whereas before he rewarded good aim and focus with kills. His kit is great for area denial and revealing targets though.

Mellka - like Galilea, this has been discussed to death. I was optimistic about the changes but judging by the reaction of Mellka mains, I’ll just assume that she got the worst of it. Just change her back, that’s all they have to do…seriously. #makemellkagreatagain

Miko - My main/favourite hero. Miko has went through nerfs, but not the kind of nerfs that kill a hero. I’d say they helped in the long run. The self sustainability was originally pretty insane. Now Biosynthesis is mostly used as a heal buffer and slight self sustain. Kunai deal great damage, the beam is fairly easy to use and the ultimate works very well. My one and only issue is the transition between Kunai and healing. Please, fix the transition issue and Miko will probably be the most balanced hero in the game. Did I mention cloud of spores is a great CC ability?

Montana - he has good survivability, I’ll give him that (health pool, dashing, hailstorm and mansformation) His gun deals huge damage and with the right team behind him, he can truly wreck face. He is one of the more balanced heroes IMO.

Orendi - never really had issues with her. She’s a glass cannon, so high damage is her specialty. The shadow fire pillars are annoying, yes, but it’s her main form of damage. I feel that she’s in a good spot.

Oscar Mike - not much to say here either. He is all around fairly balanced, I’ll still not get over the nerf to his AOE, but it’s more balanced now I guess. Same goes for thorns blight.

Pendles - unique and fun. He is punished for staying out of stealth for too long and not scoring a kill. When used correctly, he is a devastating assassin, as he should be. Not really any issues I’d say. Low survivability outside of stealth could be, but tbh, he shouldn’t even be visible for too long. He is a sneaky snek after all. Oh, his throwing star is incredibly weak, increase fire rate, travel speed and slight damage increase

Phoebe - great brawler assassin, not much to say about her other than the fact that it’s incredibly hard to escape from her at times. But I guess that’s what she’s best at. She’s fun to play but sometimes not that fun to play against :stuck_out_tongue: not that much can be changed there.

Rath - I can’t. I’m not sure what it is about him but I find myself dying far too quickly. I don’t really see anything wrong with his kit other than his ult not lasting long enough IMO. I had no issue with it pre nerf. I’m assuming Rath just isn’t for me, as much as I love his overall design.

Reyna - also underrated IMO. She’s a great shielder/rescuer. I find her damage lacking though, but she is support after all. Her ultimate is fantastic for team pushes on sentries. Her priority target is fantastic for team fights also when looking to take down specific enemies like healers. No issues with her to be honest.

Shayne and Aurox - fun to play and honestly have no issues. She isn’t my favourite hero, or play style, but I can see plenty of people who do love her. She seems fairly balanced.

Thorn - I’m upset that they removed her level 1 blight slow helix, but I can see why they did it. I’m not that happy with the tightened volley being replaced with splinter. It was great for single target burst. Volley in general is still good for it though. Her bow works great, and so does the rest of her kit. Not really many issues with her.

Toby - my only issue with him is his shield health. It falls far too quickly when focused by one or two enemies. Not a massive issue, but just a little annoying. Another than that, i don’t have any issues with him.

Whiskey Foxtrot - I could never fully get the hand of him so I don’t have much to say. When played correctly, he really is strong. Don’t have many issues with him. Just a personal skill level issue.

Overall feel that many heroes are in a good spot, but a select few have been left out for whatever reason.

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