Rath needs nerf

Now obviously, if you LOVE Rath, you think he is fine, and that he doesn’t need a nerf. But if you are ANYBODY ELSE, you probably realized in pvp that fighting Rath will always end badly. I know that he is an Assassin character and meant to dominate in 1v1, but he has too much survivability for an Assassin, that he has become a problem for the power curve of the game. I posted below my thoughts on how exactly he should change and i will quote it here where it is easier to see (this is edited from my original post)

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I haven’t found myself having too much trouble dealing with Rath tbh. I’ve been maining ISIC and his stun/slow and plasma charge wards just melt him. You just need to be conscious of where he is/have basic map awareness and don’t get caught out of position alone, because that’s who he’s designed to punish. If he’s running rampant, keep your distance and harass/bait him closer to your base/turrets/allies. He can’t survive being focused on by more than one character for long.

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I main rath, any good player can keep me at a distance, I can really only hit folks that are over extended or don’t know how to knock back. Did you know about the melee attack (middle mouse on PC) that knocks people back? Rath has no gap close, and in combo with constantly knocking him back can make it difficult.

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I read this as ‘rath needs bath’. I need some sleep.

Rath’s real squishy - just knock him back and don’t take him on solo. His ult is great, but it’s countered by a stun. He’s strong, but I don’t feel he needs changed.

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Rath is, and should be a threat 1v1. He is after all, an assassin. I don’t play as him often, because I find it hard to hit players as melee only characters. Ie I got no skillz.

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Not really, i play mainly Rath but i do know his limitations and just as been said i usually have to pick my marks i can’t just plunge forward aimlessly because he, unlike Galilea, he has no exit strategy.
And while i like him a lot i usually tend to pick other char when not playing Meltdown, anything that is wide spaced or doesn’t have much space to roam around is not ideal for him.

"There are a few things that I struggle with in this game, especially as a Rath player:

Unit collision is pretty, uh, tough. For a game that’s supposed to be fast paced etc, it’s pretty brutal to come up against unit collision issues on the tiniest minion - especially as a squishy melee attacker. This manifests in situations in which I’m trying to escape and in which I’m trying to close a kill.

Rath seems from the beginning like the ghost of a former titan. I didn’t play the CTT, but I could tell from my second game as Rath that he was likely nerfed compared to his original conception. Here’s why:

-He’s not quite fast enough. For a melee assassin/attacker, his base speed seems just a touch too slow, and there are a lot of ranged characters with considerable disengage potential in the form of sprints, dashes and pushbacks. His spin to slow helix alleviates the sticking/closing issue a bit, but I still find that closing against characters with any hard disengage is a bit tough since the slow is only 1s. Like I’m always just a touch too slow. Similarly, this applies to escapes as well. No dash, no bonus movespeed, just a CS that you likely used to engage and is still on cooldown to do anything meaningful if you need to hit-and-run. It’s as though he used to be too fast, which combined with his high attack speed made it impossible to get away from him, and so he was slightly overnerfed. The other problem could be that his damage (aside from dreadwind) is just a little low, particularly on his abilities? I’m not quite sure. Hit-and-run tactics seem to be the goal with his design, with sustain a component of keeping him in the fray just a little longer than maybe other champs. But he doesn’t feel very effective at the whole “run” component of that. And the “hit” component is pretty situational.

-His lifesteal, aside from the crazy healing potential from dreadwind with the skillful syphoning helix doesn’t actually seem to sustain our quintessential “Sustained” for anything significant. Relative to the damage he takes from being in the frey (From minions, stray bullets, snipers), his base lifesteal and talented lifesteal (aside from dreadwind) is a simple drop in the bucket. Swordman’s salve is effective at making the lifesteal seem perhaps more helpful, but the cost of losing healing on dreadwind is too high. It seems, at face value, like his lifesteal was too high in some prior closed test/alpha, and the open beta has numbers that are just a bit too conservative.

-I can respect that he isn’t a waveclear master (Excluding dreadwind), but minions hit so ludicrously hard in this game that attempting to do any sort of waveclearing yourself without a support etc is a brush with death. God forbid that any of the game’s ranged characters see you making a waveclear attempt and have decent aim. This scenario is likely a recipe for you to return to base with your tail between your legs and a pipe full of frustration, assuming you’re not dead. I’m not sure if he had DR or something previously, or if this is a function of the not-enough-sustain mentioned above, but it can be somewhat annoying.

-Dreadwind seems like it’s weirdly tuned. It hits incredibly hard with almost no warning before start up. I recognize there is counter play around it, which is great. However, if you have a health pool that is too small, it’s very likely that you’ll get destroyed before you even have the chance to attempt to counterplay. The flipside to that is that if you even breathe on Rath with anything that looks like cc, it’s over. Which in a fast-paced FPS-like moba is pretty easy to do. There are enough characters with stun/knock-up/silence options that with any reasonably coordinated team, his ult becomes more of a liability as it doesn’t protect him from damage in any way shape or form while he’s in it. It can heal him through damage, sure, but not cc. I’m not quite sure where the ultimate started at to get to this point, but it seems weird. Like in less competitive play, it’s a brutal, almost guaranteed kill. Against a modicum of coordination it’s a huge liability, often better as an emergency sprint if you Helixed into the movespeed on DW or overshield.

Sort of touched on this earlier, but minions hit so hard. I’m not sure if that’s intentional, but being a non-tanky/non-bruiser melee without some ranged options make engaging them kind of annoying (doubly so if anyone else with range is even pretending to be on you). This isn’t the end of the world, but with this game being about minion-centric objectives (so far) and not necessarily a death match, that’s sort of a strategic liability.

To be clear, I don’t think Rath needs a ton of buffs or anything crazy. I still do plenty well with him - plenty of kills, plenty of wins, etc (averaging about 3-4 KDR). As a 1-on-1 duelist, he does very well against most characters. The catalytic smash knock-up + silence + slow from crossblade is a devastating combo, although it can be difficult to secure the kill. The gameplay just doesn’t feel that fun outside of 1-on-1 duels as a result of some of the aforementioned elements. I’d love to trade some of the damage of Dreadwind for some additional CC protection, CC utility, or increased sustain from other non-dreadwind sources. I’d love to see a little bit more baseline lifesteal or a brief dash (making the leap on catalytic smash baseline could handle this) or some slightly increased movespeed. Something to make squaring off against minions a bit easier, and feeling more like a skilled Jennerit Warrior and less like a squishy Jennerit assassin who can’t push the objective or secure the kill unless the stars align.

What I’m saying is that he needs some QoL improvements. If he’s going to be the attacker in the role you have him - not as much movespeed as el dragon, without a dash/gap closer, or without phoebe’s teleport, you really need to beef up his sustain from his passive or give him a little bit more DR. Both of those things would also help alleviate the whole minion thing. I still advocate for the adjustments to his ulti. And as far as his overall damage, given that he’s not a strong aoe wave-clearer (unless he burns his ult, which is his “one-trick,”) He really should be quite the damage-dealing threat. Otherwise there’s really not a lot of pressure from him when it comes to winning/losing the game’s actual objective.

This is just my experience thus far. It’s entirely possible that others feel extremely differently or have different experiences. I’m open to some different views and some advice on how to play Rath a bit better."

If you are trying to go 1v1 with Rath, you’re going to get smacked most of the time. But the second there are multiple enemies Rath struggles.

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I have never played Rath. But I 1v1 him all the time and annihilate him, I am actually unimpressed with him.

Let’s list everyone I have killed him with 1v1 Ambra, Galilea, Mellka, Phoebe, and Oscar Mike. So pretty much every character I have ever played lol.

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He’s really only effective if you know how to use him properly. As long as you don’t overextend; you’ll most likely survive Rath

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I have yet to lose to any Rath 1v1 as Boldur. Gallaea was way worse pre-nerf than Rath ever way.

If anything he needs a buff, and I don’t even use him.

I agree. His ultimate is more broken than anything in the game and requires no skill to use. It lasts for ~5 seconds has huge aoe and can it be interrupted? I’ve never seen this. Basically you have to run or you die, whether you’re melka or Montana. Because you’re slowed if he hits you too. Sure Oscar mikes ult is just as deadly, but at least his can be avoided. I just wish rath’s spin didn’t last as long or added some level of difficulty to use. I used thorn and melka a bit during the beta and sure both the ults are strong, but they take precision, aim, expertise to execute. I guess that’s just a trait of jennerit: low skill cap, emphasized with the focus.

Pretty sure Galilea can 1v1 him.
His Ult hurts really bad but without it, Galilea can take him out
Shayne & Oryx as well.

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Yea, rath is a formidable character but in no way needs a nerf. This game is all about assessing your opponent and also your environment. How and if I fight him changes based on who I use and where I’m located. Sometime you just have to run.

If you want to talk about nerfs it’s Ambra you should be talking about. I win against rath most of the time with Ambra and she is supposed to be a HEALER/SUPPORT character.

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The only 2 characters I think should be nerf are Ambra and Gallilea. Rath is a good character, I main Oscar, and had a rough time against him but it was fun.

Against Ambra and Gallilea I had almost no chance every time.

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I have to agree with everyone who says he doesn’t need nerfed. His counter is basically just being aware of his positioning and keeping him at moderate distance, and his ult is easy to read and at least partially avoid.

Stop picking on Rath. Sure his ultimate is strong, but can be silenced. Remember, he’s meant to be an easy to play assassin.

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He’s in almost every match. That’s clue #1. He has crazy good initiation via knock-up, silence, and slows…(I think he can add stun? But I could be mistaken.) He’s hard to counter, even with silence. Add in his great self sustain and he’s undoubtedly tuned a little too high. Haven’t found another non-support with that good of self-sustain. His kit as a whole (great CC, great burst dps, great self sustain, great mobility, great initiation) shouldn’t be leaving much to debate on this topic, he needs a strong whack with the nerf bat.

I refuse to play him due to it being basically easy-mode. I prefer to play hilariously under powered chars (Caldarius) so every match is a struggle.

How is Caldariius under powered ? He’s the hit-n-run master, while his DPS isn’t that great, it’s HUGE HUGE mobility makes up for it.
I still don’t see how Rath is worthy of a nerf, while his ult is powerful it’s very easily countered with any stun and if you have a char like Benedict you can just fly away, and that’s why i usually refrain to use his ult, you’re very vulnerable while doing it.

His strength though is being easy to play, get Softened Target at the Helix, hit Catalitic Smash and then Crossblade while enemy is in the air, by the time the target hits the floor he’s at 50% while being stunned and silenced. If you use +attspeed gear it’s easy peasy.

If any char is OP it’s Ambra, stupid hard to kill and out DPS most chars.

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As someone who has played Rath alot during the Open Beta I must admit that he can be very very deadly … If you pick your encounters and skill choices carefully and don´t overextend you can often wreck enemies relatively quickly withoung endangering yourself too long …

The ultimate is of course ridiculously strong … especially with the t10 upgrade. But as many already mentioned it all can go very bad very quickly when you face some enemies with stuns or ppl who utilize the push-effect of the melee attack.

Compared to other melees Rath is actually pretty squishy! … His lifesteel is very minor and aside from the shieldsteal with crossblade he doesn´t have much sustain iirc. I have seen chars like Phoebe, Kelvin or Galilea wreak havoc just as much … or better than Rath … not mentioning some casters, rangers.

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