I LOVE THIS COMBO!! Unfortunately when I got this mutation was too late, didn´t use that much.
Saying that you can just walk away from his ult easily is not really a reason that it doesn’t need rebalancing. You can do that will pretty much all ults. But the ults that do soo much damage on the single point that they affect that they can kill tanks with just the ult alone, that is OP. Most ults are just a cheeky way to get 500 damage off, or shut down an area. Not insta-kill a group of people like Oscar-Mike and Raths’ ult.
Actually… It kinda is… You can stun rath, cancel’s his ult, get phoebe to silence him, cancels his ult, Isic’s shield can block a majority of his ult, as can galilea, a single quick melee can push actually push Rath back, if you’re aggressive with this poke, you’ll only take 1 or two hit’s, since it generally takes 4+ hit’s to kill you. Area Denial, no rath’s going to try and ult his way through any characters area denial, Thorn and Marquis are especially good at this, can easily escape his ult.
Secondly: Rath and Oscar Mike, are crutch character’s, their meant to be ridiculously easy and powerful (at least in my eyes) so that beginning player’s have a character they can use, that can at least contribute to their team, yes, not the best excuse, but you need to remember, this game doesn’t have to be 100% about skill, you’re bringing in a lot more than just common Moba players here, we’re talking player’s from several different games, even players who’ve yet to play Battleborn, and therefore would need to rely on easy/powerful characters to alleviate the skill balance vs veteran’s, yes veteran’s get to choose this as a pick too, but it’s better than just booting every single person who’s not good enough out of PvP.
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there two ways rath can go with his ult to make it have 30% more movement speed when active or more dmg when he has no shields you can break it with hard CC though
Well, anyone who doesn’t take the movement speed just hasn’t played Rath enough to know that you really need it.
I really do think that there should be some easy to play characters that are pretty good, like you said, so that non-hardcore players can play and still contribute and have fun. But then those easy characters have to have a very low skill ceiling so that good players can’t pick them up and just decimate whole teams with their OP powers. Its a difficult thing to balance
Sure feels like some of these responders didn’t read the rest of the thread before responding haha.
@LlamaWaffles555 - I’m not going to repost the stuff I’ve reposted in this thread and in the rrath-specific thread, but he doesn’t need a nerf. The things you’ve said are, from my experience, simply not true.
He can’t close the gap any more easily than anyone else with a sprint. In fact, he’s pretty easy to just turn and run from, period. If you’re backpedaling, or not sprinting, sure, you’ll get caught. His ultimate does damage (we’ve been over this) but is easily countered (already been over that as well). Regarding so little characters having the cc… ISIC stun, Montana ult, galilea stun, ghalt hook, Rath’s catalytic smash, shayne and aurox fetch, kelvin stun, miko stun… I mean I could go on, but I think you get my point. There are plenty of ccs that stop him.
If you believe his sustain is too high as it is now, even with the helix buff, I’m not sure we’re playing the same game. And I’m not sure what health regen helix you’re talking about. I don’t think the healing following a kill is a bad mechanic, but your justification for it doesn’t make a lot of sense.
Also, how can you say he closes the gap so easily, when you admit that he must take this talent choice in order to be viable. Seems contradictory.
He can close the gap easily with the mutation for his Catalytic Smash. He has to take the movement speed augment for his ult because you cant use other abilities while using your ult. He can close the gap THEN use his ult. And the mutation for his ult isn’t completely necessary in the way that his bonus lifesteal isn’t necessary. you can live without it, but it makes it soo much easier. and the mutation for bonus speed is not to help you close the gap, it is to help you chase fast characters that run, and move from enemy to enemy after you kill them because your ult does SO MUCH DAMAGE.
I’m interested to see what Gearbox’s data looks like regarding damage numbers. His ulti does crazy damage if you don’t cc him. The rest of His damage, relative to other assassins, isn’t that high. El Dragon, for example, is a superior melee assassin in every single way. Phoebe’s damage on her abilities is higher than his with better disengage/engage. I’m sorry, but I just don’t really know what you’re talking about.
To clarify, it seems like you’re just completely ignoring the tons of cc that’s available in the game to deal with his ulti. Rath without an ult isn’t a big deal (unless you did something foolish, like get caught as marquis, and even then, a well-placed slowing field could feasibly save you). A rath with an ult is a 1 man wrecking crew. However, it’s easily cc’d. And unlike what you said earlier, there are a ton of characters in the game capable of cc’ing him out of it.
I’m not disagreeing that his ult does damage. I am disagreeing that he is overpowered. I am disagreeing that there isn’t enough cc in the game to consistently counter his ult. I’m disagreeing that he closes the gap so easily (without those movespeed helixes, for which you give up great options).
EDIT: I’m also disagreeing that his sustain makes him as survivable as a tank. That’s also simply not true. He’s paper as long as you’re not in the air getting knocked up.
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His damage is not really the problem (besides his ult), the problem is with his sustainability rivaling that of a tank that is point 1 that i made. He can do crazy damage, he is an assassin. I also don’t like Crossblade (and very similarly, Phoebe’s Bladerush, they are basically the same) because they lack a lot of utility, besides their utility from being straight damage and killing fleeing players. That was my 3rd point. His ultimate is also incredibly strong, which i know it should be, but i feel it is even strong for THAT. That was the 4th point i made. And i didnt want just a straight nerf to his ult. Well, i almost did. Just gave it 30% more range, which would make it slightly harder for players to flee. Maybe if it did less damage it could be given a reduced or chance to resist stuns/slows. as for the lack of CC, that is my fault. All the characters i play have a lack of CC abilities and the agility to avoid being hit with them, so i never really got experience with them in the game. But i would be sad if gearbox lowered his damage to counteract his other strengths, because that is not what an assassin character is supposed to be.
Alright, even with those clarifications, I still disagree. I don’t actually think his ult is that strong, unless you don’t have cc. His ult is so easy to counter, in fact, that I would argue that it’s probably going to be considered pretty weak in ranked play (after a few weeks).
And see edit above. His sustain is also weak (unless it’s during the ult). Out of curiosity, what characters do you play?
This dude right here sums it up perfectly.
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In the Open Beta a mainly played as a very aggressive Orendi
Oh yeah. Orendi? Alone? Rath with ult? CS + Ult = gg. The silence from CS makes using your dash impossible. Rath’s ult will destroy you (given her low health pool) before your abilities are available for use. Brutal. The only solution for orendi is to run asap, don’t overextend, don’t get caught. Don’t solo. If rath doesn’t have his ult, though, your dash with the blind helix is pretty much get-out-of-jail against Rath.
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Firstly, I never tried to 1v1 a Rath. Sure i did a few times in the beginning, but then i got the message. Rath would CS his way into our team, them use his ult and just teamwipe everyone. With his augment for CS, he can leap INCREDIBLY far, then pop his ult and kill anyone grouped up that he wants. Even my push and quick-melee couldn’t push him away. And when i tried to run, getting hit makes you go slower, so once he hits you once, you get sucked into his ult like a Vacuum. or a Tornado. i guess Tornado would be the better analogy. But regardless, the reason i thought there was a lack of CC was because no matter what our team composition was, a Rath could always leap in and ult everyone, so i assumed that nobody could stop it. I tried to push him away, but honestly, sometimes i doubt that Nullify even pushes things, even with the mutation. As Orendi, if i was smart about it, i could kill anyone. A Phoebe? wrecked. a Montana? wrecked. I once killed a Montana, Phoebe, and Miko just myself. but Rath kills EVERYONE, every time. Maybe if i had some kind of CC/stun or something i could use against Rath, i wouldn’t think he was so OP.
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Yeah, I mean if the ulti is already going off, and you’re in it, your options are either kill him (which you likely won’t do before you’re dead unless your whole team is there and he’s already at <25%) or stop him (which if your team isn’t being attentive to the fact that there’s a rath, they haven’t saved their ccs for it). That just sounds like bad play on your team’s part. Doesn’t necessarily sound like Rath is that OP.
As a Rath player, I find Montana and Boldur insufferable. Montana is so tanky, he’s ranged, he slows. I get wrecked by him every time. He can just save his knock up (either his ult or his first ability) for my ult, making that useless. I’ve had several games where the opposing Montana’s made it their mission to just shut me down, and there wasn’t a whole lot I could do about it aside from completely disengage whenever one was around and try and maybe pick off the back line, or just disrupt. It’s incredibly frustrating. But that’s because I’m Rath. And he’s Montana. And my team was leaving me in a lot of situations where I was forced to contend with him. That’s not Montana being OP. That’s just me being Rath, not necessarily knowing how to deal with Montana just yet, and my team being kind of uncoordinated and mediocre.
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Yep he can leap very far but he also looses his silence ability, so there is no reason why you wouldnt CC on the spot, and an entire team without even one player CC him even though youre not even silenced? Thats just really bad play not Rath being OP …
And thats why i never saw a semi competent Rath choose the leap ability over the silence, thats a really bad trade off.
Funny you say that about Crossblade, i killed more players using Crossblade and Smash than with Dreadwind, by quite a margin i might add.
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The Silence from CS is so short though that as soon as you get back on the group after being knocked up, you have your abilities again
It still cancels his ult though, which seems to be the main point of this discussion.