Rational Anarchist is always worth more than Typecast Iconoclast

(Wingsday) #1

While the title might not be strictly true, the SoT COM isn’t very good so I’m going to ignore it.

Anyway, a while back I did a quick analysis of Typecast Iconoclast and Rational Anarchist, looking at the amount of stacks they give you per skill point spent, and it turns out that Rational Anarchist is always worth more stacks.

Note that RA and TI are concidered seperately; RA is not included in the spec for the TI tests.

Data:

Recall that Rational Anarchist is worth 25 stacks.

Definitions

  • stack ops to X: the number of stack gaining opportunities you must have to reach X stacks
  • total value at X: the total number of stacks granted by Typecast Iconoclast, at the given skill rank, upon reaching X stacks
  • rank value at X: the number of stacks the proc chance added by the given skill rank granted, upon reaching X stacks

Calculations:

Stack ops to X:
=X/(1+P)

Total Value at X:
=X-Oc

Rank value at X:
=Oc-Op

Where:
X: stack target
P: total proc chance
Oc: Stack ops to X for the current rank
Op: Stack ops to X for the previous rank

Assumptions:

  • proc chance stacks additively
  • stochasticity is ignored
  • having no other stack gain and maximized stack target is the ideal situation for Typecast, any further changes would only make it worth less

Nothing really ground breaking here, I just thought I might as well share.

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Gaige build for a noob xD
Gaige build for a noob xD
(Min/Maxing and Flakker god) #2

Ive always assumed that.

1 Like
(Wingsday) #3

So did I, although I thought that the first 1 or 2 ranks might have been worth more. I guess not

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(neff_wp) #4

Very interesting approrch!

But I have a question.
When players compare RationalAnarchist(RA) and Tyepcast Iconoclast(TI) , the most important thing will be “how fast players get stacks against some time” or “how much stacks players get against some time”.
So ,i dont understand whether or not comparing both on high stacks is worth.

Maybe your approrch will be correct,for example ,when players use grog nozzle mainly.
On the other hand,it will be not correct,for example ,when players use powerful weapon(like twister,killing enemy is easier).
Because Anarchy stacks is affected by Reload and kill.

If you want to compare RA and TI strictly,defining enemy’s health as any fixed value is needed, i think.


For example,at first ,you define gun damage with 0stack as 100% damage per 1magazine.
And then you define enemy’s health as any value(for example 550%).

in this case,result will be following.
With 0 stacks(RRRRRK+R)
Reload(100%)
->Reload (102.275%=100+1.751.31)
-> Reload(104.55%=100+1.751.32)
-> Reload(106.825%=100+1.751.33)
-> Reload (109.1%=100+1.751.34)
-> kill(111.375%=100+1.751.35)
->Reload
Total 634.5% > 550%(kill)

With some stacks(RRRRK+R)
Reload->Reload->Reload-Reload->kill+Reload

With 25 stacks(RRRK+R)
Reload(143.75%=100+1.7525)
-> Reload (146.025%=143.75+1.75
1.31)
-> Reload(148.3%=143.75+1.75
1.32)
-> kill(150.575%=143.75+1.75
1.3*3)
->Reload
Total 588.65% > 550%(kill)

With some stacks(RRK+R)
Reload->Reload->kill+Reload

With some stacks(RK+R)
Reload->Kill+Reload

In other words,how many reload(Same meaning of playtime) generate how many stacks.(It depends on TI , enemy’s health,first stacks)


According to my experience,RA is great.
Maybe as a result of the aforementioned reason,RA shorten the time that players reach every phase(When Reload count change for 1kill).After every phase,players get more stacks by more quick kill.
As a result,in the long run,RA would be great DPS boost per playtime , i think.

Anyway,your approrch is very interesting,so please keep it going!!!

1 Like
Looking for input on endgame Gaige skill tree
(Wingsday) #5

An Important benefit to RA is that not only will it give you more stacks than any given point in TI, but It gives them to you all at once when you have none. The important thing here it that it gives you a buch of stacks when you are at your weakest point. Additionally, if you compare RA and TI at a lower stack count, it will only favor RA more (you can see this if you compare the 400 versus 600 stack data), because it gives a flat amount of stacks, while TI depends on total stack count. I think that answers your first question, let me know if not.

I feel like the approach I took is going to be more generaly apicable than focusing on enemy health versus damage output, because it encorperates all those values into the “stack generating oppritunities” variable. In other words, the number of stack generating opritunties you will have, per unit time, will depend stongly on what weapon you are using, what kinds of enemies you are fighting, what dificulty you are in, how good of aim you have, etc. We can eliminate the influance of many of those variables, for the sake of the skill comparison, by just concidering stack generation.

As far as application goes, I don’t think this really has a massive impact on the way people are going to spec, other than mabye droping the 5th point in TI because it is only worth ~15 stacks (~3.7% of the stack cap, at 400)

I also updated the chart in the OP to include data for 150 stacks, let me know if there are any other important levels that you think should be included, but I think this is alright for now.

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(d1brunschon) #6

I get where your all coming from but i think im missing the point. Unless you’re dying, or losing EVERY stack you have, rational anarchist literally only helps you once. Most play sessions i have (not currently endgame my gaige is only lvl 45) rational anarchy procs once or twice over a 2-3 hour play session. So i just dont understand how long term, rational anarchists is worth more points than type cast. Seems completely ass backwards to me.

(So long, and thanks for all the fish!) #7

Please check the date on posts before hitting “Reply” - this one has been dormant for over 3 years. Thanks!

(So long, and thanks for all the fish!) closed #8