Real talk about Foxtrot

So, I’ve gotten to the point where I am somewhat agitated with Gearbox over this. Foxtrot was one of my favorites during beta and since the full release I have found him so lacking I have deliberately stopped played him since the first week until they fix his issues. They have yet to address any of the issues associated with him or fixes for them as far as I am aware.
First, I would like to name a few good traits because he is an interesting character.

-Foxtrot is great for ranged dps and crits are his bread and butter (cleaver with that crits lore challenge GBX. Getting us to practice in order to get better. You sly minx you).

-His sticky grenades are fabulous and fun and his helix for them is well put together and actually rewards you for leveling.

-His ult “Overdrive” is enjoyable and allows for a good opportunity to deal some major damage and really cut loose on bosses, major enemies, and other players

-He is a challenging character that is able to counter others if played well.

While I feel there are other things that make Foxtrot fun and enjoyable I think it’s best to get to the point. He has issues and plenty of them.

-His burst fire is a giant issue. Allowing players to hold down the fire button/trigger will save our hands and controllers an incredible amount of stress. There is also an issue with sprinting and firing. For most characters sprinting stops once you attack. This is not the case with Foxtrot. He will continue sprinting after you shoot a burst which causes his movements and firing to both become erratic and choppy. You will either need to stop moving or firing to end it which will often cost you either precious time or your life.

-His labels are completely wrong. He is not an “Easy” character to play and never has been. He handles in an advanced manner which is challenging, but enjoyable and rewarding. He is also not an “Assassin”. Deade is an assassin. Rath is an assassin. Hell, Oscar Mike is more of an assassin than Foxtrot is. He can hit hard at times (especially in the hands of a face shot master), but he is not an “Assassin” type character. Pretending that a character who can’t stealth/sneak, move relatively quickly, or even fire his gun in a stable manner at this point is an assassin is a ludicrous idea. Foxtrot is more in the realm of Orendi as he plays much more like a Skirmisher and mid ranged versatile dps.

-His gun (like Ghalt’s) can misfire. On occasion, bullets fired from either his standard burst or his Ult completely miss. I have tested this in private PvP matches and, though it doesn’t happen as much as it does with Ghalt, it most assuredly occurs.

These are a few of the more glaring issues I personally have encountered with Foxtrot and the fact that GBX has yet to address even one of these issues (to my knowledge) is becoming increasingly irritating. I adore Foxtrot, but his flaws make him nigh impossible to fully enjoy in either a PvE or PvP environment.

5 Likes

Gearbox have, historically, implemented incremental changes and have collected data as well as opinions from the community.

If these issues with WF are felt by a sizable portion of the community, they will be addressed as quickly as they can be.

1 Like

I tried wf once and hated him i was like many other mike can do tis better but since it was double exp i thought lets level him up quick and get it over with and well in is better than mike
Never had the miss fireing problem and i know wht you mean about the sprinting and firing thing does a werid back and fourth anamation with the gun.
I would like it to auto burst if a rocket lancher can do it i dont see why wf gun cant.

1 Like

-Burst firing is not a giant issue for everybody. A lot of games have it a lot harder with semi-auto guns requiring more presses than Whiskey does and at a faster rate too boot. Given the right Attack Speed gear if you were allowed to hold the fire there’d be little difference between Mike’s Assault Rifle and Whiskey’s. I spent almost 12 hours straight playing Whiskey exclusively and the only thing sore on me is my knees where I kept them bent under me. The erratic sprinting issue is a major issue though.

-I’d call Whiskey easy, nothing about it him is particular hard to use, he’s simply more difficult to play effectively and the labels to me aren’t how hard it is to be good it’s how hard of a character he is to control and he’s certainly easy to control. I disagree that he isn’t an Assassin actually, to me an Assassin has nothing to do with stealth it has to do with picking off alienated enemies or finishing off weakened ones. While he’s certainly not a sniper he can certainly kill fleeing enemies well enough and his fuse time on his stickies can easily cause enemies to stay in the fight too long only to be killed when the sticky goes off when they decide to run away, that too me makes him an Assassin. If we were re-labeling him I’d call him a Controller. His Triple Threat/Sticky MIRV plus Napalm gives him the ability to lock down an area and change the movement patterns of most enemies as they don’t want to run through the fire, his Scrap Cannon can be modified with knock-back which plays to him shifting enemy locations, even his Swiss Cheese revealing stealth’d character can be called a method of Control.

-I find him very enjoyable, he’s my favorite character in his current iteration and the problems you have with him I don’t see as problems at all, the biggest “flaw” for I see with him is his pacing. I’ve seen people dismiss him expecting him to be like Mike and if you re-arrange his helix you can still prevent him from scaling to his full power to early, but give him a few more tools for early game so you don’t feel entirely lack-luster in early game considering how flawed the match-making is it can be difficult to get him to his full potential depending on your team and you can’t contribute on the same level as most other Battleborn early on and it becomes a “wasted” match if you never are able to hit a stride because the match ends too early.

-The other flaw I see with him is he seems to have a lot of choices that pretty much everybody takes and few of the to mutations don’t seem to line up as alternatives to the other like some of the other Battleborn. Sticky Speed is a launch modifier so why is it up against Napalm and not Triple Threat and Sticky MIRV for instance. Then Sticky Drain could be put up against Napalm as a direct damage from being stuck vs AoE option.


Tl;dr
I’d actually be really upset if they allow his Rifle to be held down instead of having to be pulled each burst honest. I think he’s easy to control and thus is fine being labeled as easy even if he’s more difficult to be ‘good’ with. To me he is fine being classified as an Assassin. His running issue needs to be fixed. Issues for me are his late-game pacing which due to matchmaking he can have wasted matches that he never gets to hit his stride to really have an effect in combat and there’s no reason he couldn’t have an early game tool so he can contribute early on without shifting his pacing fully to early game. His Helix has choices that pretty much everybody takes and could stand being shifted a bit to try and vary builds a bit more.

2 Likes

OM is easy. Montana is easy. You just pick them and do good. But WF is not a case. He can only be easy for a person if this person is used to his gameplay style. Concidering the amount of complaints about WF’s output, you are in a minority.

His gameplay conflicts with his labeling and image, and this is an additional difficulty when you play him first times. That’s why I’m sure he needs a rework to address this issue.

At his core Whiskey Foxtrot is no different than Oscar Mike. A character can be easy to play, but can be hard to be good with they’re not mutually exclusive and Whiskey Foxtrot falls under that category. The complaints are more that they can’t use him properly or expect him to be something he isn’t along the lines of “I can’t do well with him it must be him not me” argument, people tend to blame the character rather than themselves when they do poorly and call for buffs just like people call for buffs on their favorite character even if they’re in line, but neither are the character’s fault.

-His grenades are aimed the same as Oscar Mike’s
-His rifle has the same clip size and has the same sight/scope options (one long and on short)
-His Scrap Cannon is clearly intend to be a close range weapon and it’s easy enough to hit with at close range.
-His Ultimate doesn’t require any real changes in play to use it’s just a replacement for his primary after all

As I said nothing about him is difficult to control being effective with the tools he’s given is something else entirely, but give the character to somebody who’s never played the game and Foxtrot is pretty easy to at least do something with, his lack of damage doesn’t even come from his difficulty it comes from his pacing since at his core he isn’t controlled any differently from Oscar Mike.

People are simply expecting the Easy characters to play the game for them and ensure they get a high(er) score simply because the game labels them as easy. Likewise they are expecting the advanced characters to be stronger in some way shape or form. I have a friend who is on the side of terrible at the game, his best character is Thorn and he started with Montana whom he had extreme difficulties with. He claims Montana is hard to use and Thorn is easy. Montana has to manage his damage reduction and his mini-guns heat I’d argue that that qualifies him as a “complex” character because he has to manage multiple things to simply do what he’s supposed to do, Thorn is straightforward and in that sense it qualifies her to be labeled as “easy”, aim and shoot what could be ‘easier’ than that? Pretty pointless to be arguing something as arbitrary as the character’s ease of use when everybody is going to have different expectations and interpretations of it. He posted his opinion, I posted mine nobody is right or wrong, but I highly doubt you can consider the few people on the forum as the definite “majority” when the individuals on a forum only represent a small portion of the consumers so did you survey everybody that bought the game to make sure they share the opinion that he’s not an “easy” character to make the claim that I’m in the minority and he is in the majority?

Well, if you want to go to surveys arguments, then no, I don’t have them. But you are probably new to BB discussions, because otherwise you, like me, would’ve seen multiple WF discussions that all go on basically the same scenario: some say he’s underpower and weak, others (people who learnt to play him) answer about he’s wrong labelling and what you should do (and not do) to get good results.

And you are the only person I’ve seen to state that he is easy and that only rare personal issues could prevent people from being good with him.

I see it as a pattern and a guy struggling to handle Montana is a chance.

If you browse those topic you see quite a few people saying he’s fine actually, just reading the topic titles you’re going to find complaints about all the characters mostly from people wanting to improve their character because he’s their character. I’m not new to forum discussions, but trying to use a forum to make gross generalizations about minorities and majorities is a joke when the forum represents a very insignificant portion of the actual player base to which you are trying to say the majority of players say this when you’re actually looking at a sample of well less than one percent of the population to make those assumptions. Additionally you are only taking into consideration one aspect of the game PvP, he’s recommended an awful lot as an easy and good character for PvE for “everybody” to say he’s weak and hard to use. Gross generalizations based on a minority aren’t valid “points” it’s merely a way to add credence to an opinion as being correct when opinions are ALWAYS subjective. To make an argument that my opinion is wrong as if your opinion and the opinion of the opener is some kind of objective fact and then trying to count a majority inside a MASSIVE minority as an absolute majority is the problem here.

Now you’re putting words in my mouth, I said he’s easy to control as in he’s WYSIWYG, what you see is what you get he doesn’t have to monitor a lot of things he can be played multiple ways and still do fine, the general consensus HERE is that he’s a good PvE character and not once does it say that the assessment is based on PvP, that’s an assumption people are making. Being straightforward and doing well are 2 entirely different things and once again to me a character that is straightforward is classified as easy the difficulty or the skill required to be good with said character isn’t a factor in how EASY he is to play.

Also just to site at least one example so you can no longer claim I’m the only one in the “universe” that says he’s an easy character:

[quote=“Dweller, post:6, topic:1471428”]
At his core Whiskey Foxtrot is no different than Oscar Mike. A character can be easy to play, but can be hard to be good with they’re not mutually exclusive and Whiskey Foxtrot falls under that category.
—truncated—[/quote]

I understand your point, but object to your arguments/evidence.

Whiskey Foxtrot and Oscar Mike have mostly different playstyles. Sure, you can focus on making them overlap more, if you like, but it’s not intended. As someone mentioned, Whiskey is a skirmisher. His positioning is more important. His talents are more important. Hell, even choosing when to land a shot it more important than OM.

Oscar Mike, though? He’s the paragon of the modern FPS shooter. Infinite bullets, infinite noob-tubes? Hell, lay down literal fire on the ground. You’re not just encouraged to reload early, but rewarded! His ultimate is even an airstrike.

In conclusion:
Oscar Mike is easy if you’re used to the traditional FPS (Read: CoD4)
Whiskey is easy if you’re used to a MOBA (Read: Heroes of the Storm)

Both you and Jordan make good points. It’s okay to have conflicting opinions on a character. Even if you and other people see that foxtrot isn’t as bad as others think. You’ll win an argument against me about foxtrot forever, but I don’t think it’s fair to assume people having issues with a character is them just being bad.

Playstyles yes, I’m talking about control schemes. Whiskey and Mike have the same control schemes which aren’t complicated to manage in and of themselves they’re both traditional FPS shooter characters. Their guns work the same way just having different firemodes, they both have grenades aimed in the same method. Whiskey’s Ultimate doesn’t require any change up from the rest of his kit since it just replaces his primary fire and his under barrel behaves pretty much EXACTLY like Oscar Mike’s Frag Grenades as well minus the targeting indicator for it, but a Master Key is a common attachment in FPS as well and the Scrap Cannon is truly no different than a Master Key.

Playstle != Control
Once again there is nothing complex about Whiskey in terms of control and .’. is correctly labeled as easy from that standpoint.

I’m not saying that, I’m saying just because you can’t play a character successfully regardless of how he’s labeled isn’t an issue with the character either, it means you can’t play the character and should play somebody else. The characters are different for a reason after all. There are posts about Whiskey having to be close range, that’s an example of somebody having a certain expectation for the character playing him that way and being unsuccessful playing him based on their expectation then calling for a change for the character to meet their expectation rather than being willing to shift playstyles or accept that they just can’t play him properly and move onto one of the other characters.

1 Like

Agree. Whiskey is a easy character to control. Which is the reason why he has the easy tag. You just press a button and shoot with him nothing is complex about using his abilities. Though skill level is different. I have seen some good Whiskeys and seen some bad ones but I can say the same about every Hero.

I agree his pacing is slow but I can understand why the drain morph is not in the same cataegory as the napalm morph. It would be crazy strong to put three drain grenades on a target but it would make the options clearer and worth while. Do I want use napalm to control an area or do I want to quickly take down my target fast with the drain health and shields morph. It would make more sense for this to be a level 6 Helix choice then because this would be a huge game choice. It would also full his assassin roll even better with three drain grenades but I think it will be too powerful and I can see players calling for nerfs.

You can divide his helix different to make each level a different type of upgrade that is a valid alternative to another. Request to re-arrange the Helix a bit and one minor change/buff It doesn’t fit the same pattern as the other Battleborn, but his current helix doesn’t quite fit it either and it causes some issues with some current builds, but as of right now I’m holding by that a simple rearrangement of his abilities (which that was put together based on posts I’ve found here not some sort of idyllic build for myself) could appease those having trouble with him while not overtly buffing him so people start complaining he’s too strong (in capable hands) I had Sticky Drain in the same line as Napalm as they both modify the behavior and I highly doubt given the accuracy of the average Whiskey player with the Sticky Grenades that there’d be much complaining about him in general and only frustration would be seen from a Whiskey in the proper hands

1 Like