Request: Please tone down the surrendering mechanic

So I’ve discussed this with a few others and I’d just like to make a thread for this: the current surrendering mechanic is a bit out of control. I feel like it was fine where it was before but the changes to it makes some very glaring issues obvious.

  • Surrendering

First of all, way too many people just abuse this mechanic instead of actually fighting it out. I have been in Incursion matches where a team would surrender before their first sentry is destroyed or literally the second it gets destroyed. I have been in several Meltdown matches where teams would surrender after only being ~100 points down. Too many people just surrender instead of playing the game.

Solution: Prevent surrendering unless a team is losing by a certain amount of points or until a certain time has been reached.

  • One minute cooldown between votes

This is way too short. I have seen people call for surrender literally every minute until the team surrendered, and when they didn’t surrender said person who called for it would ragequit. Three minutes was just fine.

Solution: Revert to three minute cooldown

  • Same person can call multiple surrender votes

Now, as a disclaimer, I don’t know if this is actually true (because I haven’t been calling for surrenders) but I believe this is the way it works. If so, this obviously should not be allowed. IMO each person should have at least a “personal” five minute cooldown before they can call for another vote surrender with a “global” surrender cooldown of three minutes.

Solution: Prevent same person from calling multiple votes or add in a cooldown on a per-person basis in addition to the overall cooldown.

  • Conclusion

Generally, if it is obvious that you are going to lose no matter what, you’re also going to lose pretty quickly. This isn’t necessarily the case for Meltdown but it is generally true for Incursion. The new surrender mechanics are too excessive and they encourage surrendering instead of trying to comeback.

5 Likes

I agree. A buddy and I played ~15 matches last night and only had 3 go to full length. We won all of them but 12 were surrenders before or right after the first sentry died. Barely get any xp when the other team surrenders. At least gove like a double or triple xp bonus by winning due to surrender.

[quote=“dr_kleese, post:1, topic:1405389”]- One minute cooldown between votes

This is way too short. I have seen people call for surrender literally every minute until the team surrendered, and when they didn’t surrender said person who called for it would ragequit. Three minutes was just fine.

Solution: Revert to three minute cooldown

  • Same person can call multiple surrender votes

Now, as a disclaimer, I don’t know if this is actually true (because I haven’t been calling for surrenders) but I believe this is the way it works. If so, this obviously should not be allowed. IMO each person should have at least a “personal” five minute cooldown before they can call for another vote surrender with a “global” surrender cooldown of three minutes.

Solution: Prevent same person from calling multiple votes or add in a cooldown on a per-person basis in addition to the overall cooldown.[/quote]

One or the other, not both. If there is a personal timer to block someone from spamming surrender votes, then having a global timer doesn’t help that much, as typically it ends up being that only one player truly wants to surrender, while the others don’t want to bother with the constant surrender votes.

Personally, I like the idea of the personal timer more so than the larger global timer. It means that you’ll be able to clearly tell when more than just one person honestly doesn’t want to play this match anymore.

1 Like

If it was down to me id just remove it as even if the vote doesnt go through the person wh asked for it would leave anyway.

Hell even if you lose sticking it out will gain you abit more character exp.

I have to agree with this. When they changed the surrender system to “fix” the issue with unbalanced games, I already knew this was going to be the result. Rather than fixing the actual problem (the unbalanced matchmaking and player dropping), they just applied a band-aid that just covers up the problem, but doesn’t actually fix it. Since the change occurred, half my matches have been ending in surrender, either by my team or the other (and I almost always vote against surrender). It’s kind of ruining pvp to be honest.

1 Like

Yeah, I’ve had probably around half or over half of my games end in a surrender as well. It is just happening far too much.

[quote=“dr_kleese, post:1, topic:1405389”]
Surrendering

First of all, way too many people just abuse this mechanic instead of actually fighting it out. I have been in Incursion matches where a team would surrender before their first sentry is destroyed or literally the second it gets destroyed. I have been in several Meltdown matches where teams would surrender after only being ~100 points down. Too many people just surrender instead of playing the game.

Solution: Prevent surrendering unless a team is losing by a certain amount of points or until a certain time has been reached.[/quote]

The sad part about trying to fix the surrendering system is that people will just leave the game if you put a timer on surrendering. Take it from someone who has 500+ hours in the moba SMITE that if people feel that they can’t win in a moba, they’ll leave. If Gearbox implements a system that discourages surrendering, they’ll be implementing a system that encourages leaving. I remember playing a 3v5 where a player on my team wanted to surrender and because he didn’t get his way, it became a 2v5. I don’t know about you, but i’d rather have surrendered than play a 2v5.

2 Likes

I’d prefer the chances of people leaving to the current easily abusable surrender system. Keep in mind this is a game that people paid $60 for so that will factor in some towards leaving match rates. That being said, specific situations that are remedied by the current poor system doesn’t change that it’s still kind of a poor system.

Wait… they’re “abusing the mechanic” by giving you a win? That’s not really how abuse works… A surrender doesn’t rob you of anything, it doesn’t hurt you, it just gives you your win faster, and lets the other team get on with having fun. How does that annoy you? Are you really just looking for a way to make others miserable?

The point of surrendering is to get you out of a game you’re not enjoying (because you’re losing) and back into a game you are enjoying.

Leaving doesn’t work well in this because you get put back into a game if you drop out of it, which means you need the ability to surrender otherwise you’re committing people to a 25 minute match if they’re unable to win.

If you take out surrenders, here’s what happens: A player disconnects, you’re down 4 to 5. The enemy team gets a lead, they push you clear into your base, but then they decide they’ll just farm you for kills. They already are winning (up 50 points) so why even kill your last sentry, just pad their stats. So they sit there, and you can’t even leave and play another game because the (seriously awesome) system will put you back in the game.

This junk happens in other games, and it’s terrible, because it puts people off of your game, makes them have a bad time.

Now, if you could surrender, you can just admit defeat, and instead of suffering through the next 15 minutes, you can move on to another game and get back to what video games are about: Having fun.

Nerf surrendering… that’s just ridiculous.

Your only looking at it from one point of view it only takes a majority vote for the surrender. If im on a losing team i dont care i want to stick it out and finish the match. But everyone else in my team votes to surrender i dont even have that option. So yes they can abuse it very easily. Especially when one guy just sits at base and does nothing but call for the option.

2 Likes

It does hurt me. I don’t play with organized teams. That’s because I don’t play to get sweaty and just force victory after victory after victory because my team has an advantage by playing as an organized team capable communicating. No, I play solo, or with my brother. I do this because I just want to have fun playing the game. Yes, I do want to win, and I try my best to win. But just getting wins at the expense of not really getting to play the game is not a fun experience.

A comparable analogy: would you enjoy playing pickup basketball if the other team surrendered every time your team was up by two points? Because, if you have a better team, then you will end up scoring like 4 points, being up 2, and then the game ending. And this would just repeat. But unlike organized play like NBA, playing pickup basketball is about having fun and enjoying the sport as well as winning. So a surrender system like the one in Battleborn currently definitely does “rob you” of something: the experience.

Another thing to note is that the shorter the match, the less score and objectives that you can accomplish, and thus the less experience that you can receive at the end of the match (if exp is indeed influenced by these things, as it appears).

And a more preachy/philosophical note, it is also not good for improvement. If you quit every time you’re a bit down, you won’t truly be improving your skill. And I say this because a lot of the times that surrenders first get called, the disparity between the two teams isn’t even that much yet. People just either want to win or quit instantly. They don’t want to take their losses. It’s like dashboarding back in the MW2 days when the host would just quit and end the game for everyone else because he/she wasn’t dominating.

But these are just my two cents. I understand where you’re coming from, but the surrender system is not the solution. The solution is team balance, matchmaking, and a solution to the player dropping problem (like allowing randoms to join or replacing the dropped players with bots until they return, like GoW2 back in the old days).

2 Likes

some games after the first encounter you can tell how the game is going to go. sometimes even when you see the two teams facing eachother after character selection. why would i want to waste 10-30 minutes on a game thats obviously a loss? i think if you vote to surrender, and the vote fails, anyone who voted yes should be able to quit the game and start a new one. without the ban until that game finishes.

Why? Because you cannot predict the future. I’ve comeback from a 100-400 and other similar situations. Giving up before the game has even begun ruins the experience for people as Roti described.

I’ve had games where the first encounter goes horribly for my team. Where we just get beaten to a pulp each and every time we try to go out to fight early on. Those very same matches we end up rallying and turning the tides to take the objective. It’s amazing what can happen if you simply allow yourself to not give up.

After a point, you can’t become a better player without adversity, without challenge. There’s a point where you’re learning the character and what they’re good at. Then there’s a point where you’re learning how that character can counter other characters, even ones that people wouldn’t expect.

idk if you came from CoD or destiny, or both, but you clearly do not really understand this game. the only time this game is ever guaranteed to be a level playing field, regardless of skill level, is right out of the gate. if a team is two levels higher than you and has middle map control on both lanes of a meltdown match, you simply CANT catch up. you can be twice as good individually, but you are still not coming back from certain points in this particular game. have i come back in games? yes. but those arent the games where i have agreed to or posed for surrender. there is a point of no return in this game, and sometimes it happens quickly.
if you want to finish games, ill tell you like i told a guy in another thread like this one. dont play with anyone else. the matchmaking is set up to where you will basically lose a little more than half your games if you play solo

You never know how a match is going to go. I had an incurssion match where our first sentry was destroyed and our second was at half health. Then out of nowhere my team just seemed to click and we pulled it back for a win.

We were also against higher ranked people and a team of Gali/miko with an ambra on backup.

The fun is turning it around in the end.

But you’re the type of player who has the confidence to turn that around. Personally I never surrender, yes I get voted out on it sometimes, but it doesn’t bother me.

The types of people who drop out of games when they lose their first sentry aren’t the types of people who are going to fight tooth and nail to make a comeback. It’s disappointing because YOU know you could make a comeback, and you know that it’s far from over, but to the people who checkout as soon as the first turret is down, they’re going to checkout and quit trying whether you let them leave or not. They’re not the teammates that you’re going to pull off a miraculous turn-around with.

You’re ALWAYS going to have to deal with those players, you CANNOT force them to play, you can’t force them to try to make a comeback, you can’t make people want to win. The reality is, with those people, the quitters, on your team, you’re going to lose anyway. They’re either going to half-heartedly keep dying, or they’re going to leave, or they’re going to surrender.

Surrendering is a fast, clean way to get them out of your game.

This isn’t true at all… while the game loves to snowball to the end, and they do have a heavy advantage, there’s no such thing as a MOBA that you can’t come back in.

There are characters who are strong early game, and characters who are stronger late-game. If you have a late-game team comp you can certainly turn things around once your characters come online… that early game advantage has to be mitigated, you need to stop the bleeding, stay alive, keep getting farm, and prevent them from getting too far ahead so you can turn it.

The game changes drastically when characters hit level 5, some characters gain a tiny little ability that doesn’t make that big of a difference… some gain a game-changer that when used right can wipe an entire team.

Simply not true. The type of people who constantly call for surrender votes are typically calling for it so the game will end. Why? Because they want to get into a different game. If they can’t surrender they can’t get into a new game and will have to simply continue playing or wait. Everyone who calls for surrender are not all quitters who wouldn’t fight anyways. Case and point, I’ve been in games (during open beta) where someone has tried to surrender several times that we ended up winning.

The problem is the current system allows for people to easily end a game via. surrender regardless of which camp they are in. As I said in my original post, it encourages surrendering instead of trying to make a comeback, in which case, of course you will have more people trying to surrender instead of trying to make a comeback.

Again, not the type of person who is going to help you fight until the end. So those guys are calling for a surrender, but your team didn’t let them. At which point they have the choice to leave and wait until your game is over, or stay and play. That’s the opposite of encouraging surrendering…

Encouragement means there’s a reward, and there’s not a reward for surrendering, other than not being in that game any more. Your reward is for winning: More XP, you get a loss and less XP for surrendering… that’s the opposite of “encouraging” as there’s a punishment…

If you take away surrender then you have to remove the mechanic which drops people back into the same game. The part you’re missing is that it gets rid of the old system where half the team would just leave when they started to lose. Why stay when you’re a coward who knows you won’t win? And then the people who don’t want punished, who don’t want to lose extra XP wind up playing 2v5 or something else ridiculous.

Surrendering cleans up the matchmaking process, keeps games from going unnecessarily long, helps prevent people from just dropping out of the match all together, and allows the option to automatically re-insert people into the match they were in before disconnecting to be a thing (which is awesome for when you actually DC)

I honestly can’t see why anyone would complain about an option to surrender being a thing…