But that only works with quick recharging skills or not? Downfall for instance has a cooldown of 36s and Helping Hand(s) only lasts 8s.
Yeah, the cooldown will probably have to be relatively short. But a 50% net cooldown reduction on Downfall will get it pretty close to constant!
So depending on hitboxes and enemies available… Reverberation + Revelation looks like the highest ceiling from a numbers standpoint?
Potentially. It depends highly on how the skill works and on the player skill level. But it has the highest damage potential by a WIDE margin.
The other factor that comes to mind for me that’s harder to pin down is the number of situations that you can deploy it correctly in. Like, staring at these numbers, I know it’s going to outpace Tandava roughly if I can hit the theoretical 2.5 targets at once. If you’re using allure, this seems pretty easy to set up the first shot to draw everyone together and then the second shot is just… well, a goddamn nuke going off (but does lower the benefit of spacing out allure shots to manage buffs like wrath, etc). If you’re not using allure, then one you hit combat, then you pretty much need to find a situation in which you can hit 3 enemies every 10 seconds or so. These situations will undoubtedly exist in the game, (probably a lot of the time) but the frequency is still an issue.
Honestly when I first started theorycrafting with Amara I was thinking that the overlapping hitbox thing might still be a bit and that it would be a “big boss single target dps” option for the build. That was awhile back, but now I find it… almost hilarious that it seems like it might be my mobbing skill, while tandava would end up as the reliable “damage on boss” skill, depending on how deliverance works.
I don’t like guessing this muuuch
whines, kicks can down the street, grumpily
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I love the pre-release guessing game as it shows the dedication of the community. Just look at this thread and the mathematical work and theorycrafting that has gone into a game that isn’t even out yet.
I look at Reverberation and Tandava as 2 types of attacks. Tandava will be better on the average combat situation IF its blast is big enough to hit a lot of targets after a singularity. By the way, “Allure” could on its own break Reverberation if it lines up your targets well enough, just sayin’.
Tandava will probably have a big enough radius to be the better mobbing skill on average encounters with little playstyle modifications. If you’re trying to get the maximum out of every single Action Skill Activation, then Reverberation will be much better, but you have to put the work into it to make it the superior skill. Like you and I said, Tandava has a high floor with a low ceiling while Reverberation has a low floor with a high ceiling. Both will have their moments to shine.
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This I think is going to be the big thing. Putting allure on this with avatar support means no matter how the damage is calc’d… its going to be ■■■■■■■ massive. If the game calcs the damage by how many targets are going to get hit before the damage, then flat out, by this math (unless scaling is way off what we’re thinking or there’s a secret damage cap in the bacground), it’s just going to be flat out the best mobbing combo in the game. I’ve not seen anything that can really compete with it. Even if it works at a “staged” level dealing damage based on who gets hit with what first, then anything after the 4th mob should just be pink mist if the damage levels are even semi workable (although it does play into a super weird playstyle where you’re trying to hit the badass last with it, which seems fun). There’s still other factors to consider when you decide if you’re going to go all in with that last shot, but… exponential damage and Borderlands games have never played well together.
While a really sound theory that will probably work most of the time, it still has to be considered how enemies react to singularity-effects. Also, we don’t know where the singularity is positioned. It might be on the object of the Action Skill, which might make our theory almost impossible to execute reliably, because it would let enemies overshoot the line you want them to be in. But again, we have to wait and see how it works as we know literally nothing about all the skills we are discussing here.
If Allure isn’t working as we hope it does, then we might really need to use Singularity Grenades. But thats nothing new for Sirens, so I’m fine with that too.
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Right.
As of this second, I’m treating Allure as effectively having the same radius as Converge in BL2.
Which I’m somewhat certain affected Helios’ orbit every time Maya used it.
It’s entirely possible that Allure is less um… wide reaching. Still, nothing about BL3 seems to be as toned down as parts of BL2 were so time will tell.
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Funny enough, but we are talking about the skill tree that can double Allure’s radius, so I assumed that it would be smaller than Converge was, if alone for the fact that doubling Converge’s radius would be overkill. Also, for balancing, as it has a duration which makes it stronger by default if you can lure your enemies near the point where Allure will be placed.
Edit: Something that could make a difference is the scaling of the game and how bonuses like “Laid Bare” work. If your weapons make more damage than your Action Skill in a fight, then it might be worth it to spec into Tandava to get the damage buff to as many enemies as possible.
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Huh. Had not noticed that. A continual effect instead of one quick burst.
Yeah you’d think that’d have a smaller effect but…
Cheesum crepes that’s a lot of stuff to wait on.
Just a bit over 7 weeks, then we can get our hands on the game. That’s going to be endless hours of testing!
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Nooooo! My greatest fear!
If y’all want the spreadsheet or the formulas I can post them for you own hypothesizing.
To me, it reads (and gameplay looks) like hitting 2 enemies will be consistently possible if you’re clever, but they take just a hint more damage to kill than what vanilla Tandava and a few elemental shots can dish out. With a proper spec, I bet we can get Tandava to one-shot the simpler enemies, and fall back on Remnant to hit the bosses & badasses. With that, we don’t necessarily need Allure to group things up unless our weapons benefit greatly from the singularity, so we can use Revelation for the extra chance to regain Rush stacks from Violent Tapestry, or Soul Sap for effectively a full heal on cast.
Ohhhhh don’t you know it!
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Don’t worry, even if the Action Skill is the primary source of damage, there is still nothing bad about extra damage against surviving enemies, especially bosses. Also, we don’t know how many variations onlf elemental resistances we will encounter. If we get to an enemy that is for the most part only weak against radiation, then we might need to fall back to our weapons, especially if the situation doesn’t allow “Reverberation” instakills.
Also, I could imagine Gearbox putting in an enemy that resists Action Skill Damage in general. Would probably something pretty late in the game, but it might come up.
Oh please no. That would be so lame. I don’t think this exists already or does it?
Off-Topic: Do we even know if Phaseslam counts as splash or even melee damage?
I think this applies to all of Amara’s action skills… She’d be the only one with a special type of damage for “action skill” – Moze obviously deals traditional damage, as does Zane, and I expect Fl4k to have melee & some quirks for its action skill damage type. Perhaps Amara’s action skill damage is just considered “elemental”?
I know its not easy to figure out what Deliverance would do with its additional orbs comming out, but i think its overall strongest looking one for several reasons.
- 3 projectiles per enemy hit, granting 4 hits in total.
- Even on a boss that means 4 stacks of Samsara going regardless of adds or having to time it for potential add spawns.
- If the dmg per projectile is the same as Remnant 1/3 points it still offers a good reason to try and line em up as it grants 3 of those bastards per enemy hit.
Also GJ on theorycrafting ! 
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As far as the description says the orbs from “Deliverance” might not even deal damage themselves. They just get an elemental effect going. It is very well possible that “Deliverance” in fact is made to synergize with Amara’s “Fist of the elements” tree and not with her skills that profit from damage done by action skills. For those we have potentially better skills like “Tandava” (for multiple targets hit) or Fracture (for the cooldown).
Yeah that’s something I realized as well a while back with deliverance wording and switched to tandava for my build. With you basically being forced to double activate your action skill to make the most out of it tandava is probably best for pure mystical assault build and getting to 5 stacks of samsara.
We will have to see how reverberation works against some bosses if they have multiple crit spots other wise not seeing that one get much use
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Well, “Fracture” could give you the best of both worlds if it fits your gear. If you can draw enemies into a straight line, then “Fracture” should be ideal. I think that Amara will love singularity grenades anyway, especially with the builds that don’t use “Phasegrasp”, so that should be a match made in heaven.