RIP Recursion (Post-patch gameplay)

Man…using this gun after the patch hurts my soul:
(For context, using URad anointment, with 200% average gun dmg, 150% Rad, and 100% splash dmg)


Gameplay mistakes aside, this thing is weak now…I’m not saying the multiple projectiles should come back, but for a charge-up, slow-projectile weapon, it needs somethin

Edit: Proposition…more damage? longer, faster bullet reflections? adding one pellet to all versions? Shooting two elements at once?

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Well thanks devs you messed up my favourite build/weapon. BL3 will be going on the backburner for awhile. Peace out!

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The Seventh Sense, the Hyperfocus, the K/Q’s Call, Wagon Wheel… So many great weapons and fun interactions destroyed to make way for nerfing this single gun :cold_sweat:

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Fun was detected, and has subsequently been obliterated. As per their stated design philosophy…

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The point of the change wasn’t to nerf the Recursion.

It was to stabilize the game.

On consoles especially, Driver Amara with a N2M Recursion would freeze the game for several seconds (literally not figuratively) every time she hit with that gun and more than one enemy was around.

Besides, the videos show that it’s still quite possible to kill stuff with it, just not to wipe the whole screen with a single shot.

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I get that, but with no buff to counteract the nerf, these weapons (i.e. King’s/Queen’s Call, Seventh Sense, Rowans Call, etc) that were mediocre before downright suck now.

If you’re powerful enough you will kill eventually, but the point of these videos was to show the time it took to kill. Mind you, vanilla guardians are extremely frail, and I could only kill COV by headshot when they we’re weakened…why use this when I could kill faster with another fire shotgun?

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Has the wagon wheel also been affected? Was planning on doing a multiplication build with it once Iron Cub comes out

Exactly, whether you see the change as a nerf or a justified balance the fact is that a not insignificant number of weapons (and subsequently builds focussed on them) are significantly weaker and less viable today than yesterday but with nothing to balance them.

Pretty much the only way to get any use out of a carrier or rowans/queens/kings call on higher difficulties was to multiply the projectiles.

Fine, ‘fix’ the projectiles but why no appropriate damage buff?

Guess we just have to tick a few more weapons off the top tier list and all run around with monarchs and light shows as intended.

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@Kitty_Hellfire @WxndaBread Agree with what you guys are saying. If they are going to reduce the number of projectiles the Recursion (and other weapons) can spawn, a corresponding increase in the weapon’s damage would be appreciated.

The literal only reason anyone uses the Recursion, Wedding Invitation, Reflux, Redistributor, etc., is the potential to spawn multiple projectiles. The base damage of the weapons appear to take into account the fact that the devs knew players would be using these weapons in the way that we have been. So if the base damage is designed around being able to spawn a ridiculous number of projectiles, then if you are going to take away the ridiculous number of projectiles (which I do agree was very needed from a performance perspective), increase the base damage by 3-4 times to account for it.

Because right now, the Recursion and weapons with similar mechanics aren’t completely unusable or anything, they just appear to me to be relegated solidly into the B-tier (or below) of weapons, whereas they may have been S-tier before.

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An increase in raw damage isn’t going to fix lowering the projectile count.

The point of those guns is PRECISELY the gameplay mechanics involved that were nerfed. Increasing the damage does nothing to preserve their purpose, their very identity.

That just makes them into Harolds.

And with that, I am out.

Gonna finish up DQ11, and use my 2K Paragon Non-Season D3 DH to get my loot fix, until Fairy Tail and then Cyberpunk release.

GGPO, y’all.

It was a helluvah fun 2 weeks.

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An increase in raw damage DOES, at least partially, solve the issue of the overall damage you get with weapons like the Recursion.

Let’s say you have 28 projectiles that would ricochet with the Recursion prior to today’s patch. Now, you get only about 4 (as I recall from reading the patch notes) and the projectiles cannot re-ricochet again once they already have ricocheted (which is a HUGE source of damage, obviously).

28/4 = about 1/7 of the damage. This is not exact math because there is no way to know how many projectiles are ricocheting at any one time, but you catch my drift. If you then multiply the base damage by some multiple to get it to where the weapon’s projectiles can hit 1/7 as many times but do roughly equivalent damage, this would help address the issue.

And you still don’t have any game performance issues. This would have seemed like a good middle ground to me, but I don’t really think they are all that interested in balancing around level 60. I feel certain they will figure out how to address this as the game matures and we get to level 70+.

Or maybe they will do nothing at all and the Recursion is just going to be a B-tier weapon for anyone other than Amara, as it was before the MTD was released and multiple ASE elements were added. That may be what the devs want for the game.

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That’s what the patch notes say (and how I interpreted it) but currently it seems you get 0 new projectiles on anything for adding elements. Unclear whether this is intended or not. Any ricochets are only what is inherent to the recursion. Would take a pretty massive buff to make up for that.

Well I agree with you but we did not get any weapon buffs this patch and there is tons of legendaries that needs buffs at the moment.
I would just be patient guys the dev’s actually finally get rid of buggy interactions and things that really corrupt the games stability and now you guys are like “meh I am not able to one shot the whole entire room, rip borderlands”

While this is by all means not a great deal at the moment it is a great step into a stable and better borderlands 3

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Sounds like they fixed the bug that was causing various guns to create more projectiles than intended and we are now starting to see a fallout of complaints from people who were essentially exploiting a game glitch for their benefit and chose to go out of their way to optimize that exploitation. In which case no buff to the guns were needed as they were performing far above what they should have due to an unintended glitch. The same kind of fallout will happen from Amara players centering their entire build and playstyle around fakegrasping to keep ASE anointment effects active almost 100% of the time if they ever get around to fixing that skill interaction with anointments.

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“I can’t one shot entire rooms in slaughter shafts and raids now, the game is completely ruined.” Dude. Literally who cares. Get over it. They are finally beginning to purify the game and if that means the Recursion dies then so be it. While other weapon buffs should have came along with this recursion nerf, I’m sure they are coming in the future.

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Please don’t hear me say I’m angry or salty about this. Not at all. I am going to enjoy the game not having to be balanced around the infinite “dayumage” of a bazillion ASE projectiles. That is impossible.

But the fact that they have already balanced the game around these types of mechanics only means that nerfing those same mechanics results in us having to ONCE AGAIN rethink our builds and the game’s mechanics. Jeez, just leave the game alone at some point.

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I would rather they just tune down the graphics when there are a lot of projectiles. The new Recursion is just sloppy butt cheeks. It’s not fun anymore.

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Right :point_up:

This isn’t a salt post, but a “this weapon needs love” post…this was one of my all-time favorite guns…buffs should come with nerfs in this game

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It’s about what can be expected.
Unfortunately, there does not appear to be much forethought into any of the Nerfs they come up with. In the case of the multi-projectile weapons, it is not hard to discern that if the number of projectiles is reduced, the existing projectiles should be given a damage boost. Not necessarily to the level the many projectiles would have caused, but something to meet half-way.

Unfortunately, as has been shown in the past and just now, not much thought is given to it outside of removing something. No attempt to compensate.

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That’s not really an option. Generating multiple projectiles quickly taxes processing power, even if your graphic settings are as low as possible. Capping the number of projectiles generated is the most straightforward and least intrusive way of handling the issue at least from a performance perspective.

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