SalCapCorvette unit cap

Posting here as recommended:

Can we remove the salvage corvette cap since they’re much more vulnerable than they’ve ever been (capping them generally instead with corvettes as it was in the original HW)? I don’t think it would be a serious game changer since their so weak now but it would go a long way in making the salcap a viable unit again.

For lack of a better way to express how I feel about this suggestion:

AWW HeLLLLL Naw!

The entire point of this is for public discussion. So discuss. If people start topics where nobody else speaks up, unless they are REALLY obvious issues to fix, they’ll have no traction, and not become work anyone here does…

Single player campaign

I don’t like the idea of removing the cap for Salvage Corvettes or buffing them at all really. I feel like they’re already pretty powerful since they can instantly latch onto an enemy ship and drag it away. No, they won’t generally survive if the player tries to use them in a frontal assault, and I think that makes perfect sense, but a mildly crafty player can easily capture large numbers of enemy ships during the campaign.


Multiplayer

As far as multiplayer is concerned, I don’t have much input since I haven’t played multiplayer competitively in HW at all. However, I have two thoughts we can discuss as well as alternative options.

  1. What happens if the only corvettes a player builds are Salvage Corvettes?
    They’d have 42 of them. That’s potentially enough for a crafty player to capture and take away 21 frigates, 10 Destroyers, or 7 Heavy Cruisers in one go. Of course, an opponent would be hard pressed to field that many of those ships especially since the caps for the latter two are fairly low. Also, more likely many of the Salvage Corvettes would be destroyed, so let’s say half of them bite it. 10 frigates, 5 Destroyers, or 3 Heavy Cruisers get snagged. That’s a hefty swing for one battle since the first player could still have a large fleet of frigates and larger ships as well.

  2. If GBX were to remove, or change, the caps for Salvage Corvettes, what other ships should have their specific caps removed or changed? Heavy Cruisers take a really long time to build, so why have a cap for them? Or, Destroyers? (Devil’s advocate here)

BitVenom asked for other options to be mentioned in addition to the primary suggestion for these discussions, so here is my list to help with that:

  1. Remove cap for Salvage Corvettes
  2. Remove Salvage Corvettes from multiplayer
  3. Increase/Lower cap
  4. Increase/Decrease HP
  5. Increase/Decrease speed
  6. Increase/Decrease chance to be hit by beam weapons and missiles
  7. Make no change at all
    Edit: 8. Move the cap from Corvettes into a separate category (or into support and increasing support’s cap) making building them less of a gamble between combat power and salvage. (Only applies to multiplayer.)

I have my personal ideas for what might be good to do, but again, since I don’t play multiplayer HW, I’ll keep my opinions to myself.

Regards

My point was to make salvaging a useful tool. As it stands no one will use them in MP because there is almost zero chance of getting away with it. Also, with the AI the way it is now and the reduction of armor it’s more vulnerable in SP as well.

My reasoning: Back in the day, salcaps were scarcely used in multiplayer because it was very difficult actually getting away with a capture. It was not used very much but it was used on occasion. I’ve used it to some success and so did others. Also, back in the day, there was no dedicated cap for salcaps. It was tied into the generic corvette cap. A player had the choice of what strategy to use and how many salcaps, if any, to dedicate to that strategy. It wasn’t predefined.

All I’m saying is: The original game had no special cap, other than corvette cap and it wasn’t a problem so why introduce a cap now since the salcap has been made even more vulnerable and the AI is also better at defending against them.

If GBX were to remove, or change, the caps for Salvage Corvettes, what
other ships should have their specific caps removed or changed?

The cap is a dedicated cap. Corvettes already have a cap. This dedicated cap was never in the original game.

What happens if the only corvettes a player builds are Salvage Corvettes?
They’d have 42 of them. That’s potentially enough for a crafty player to capture and take away 21 frigates, 10 Destroyers, or 7 Heavy Cruisers in one go.

Playing against the AI or an opponent, you’d never even get close to such a number of captures.

I wouldn’t be bringing this up if the salcap hadn’t been reduced to insignificance.

There is a scenario where the salcap can be used to ‘spam’ the game. In a SP or AI game where the player uses the “save game” and “pause” keys to increase their chances beyond what the designers had in mind. This scenario does not affect SP or AI games when played through without using these ‘spam’ techniques (cheating) “and” you can’t use this ‘cheat’ in MP.

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I agree with @herbyguitar,
But for me, the closer to the original, the better.

Which, frankly, I really like. Any more powerful, and Salvaging ships would be all many people would ever do in the campaign, and that’s super boring to me since there are so many other ways to win.

Salvage Corvettes are still super useful in the campaign if players want to use them, but they aren’t the ultimate strategy at the moment, and when there isn’t an ultimate strategy, players are able to try out different things to win which makes playing so much more exciting.

My comment about the ultimate strategy also applies to including super dreadnought ships in games. Racing to get the “I win” dreadnought ship is incredibly boring and lame imo.


Right. That’s why I wrote…

I don’t know. Personally, I hate the idea of salvage corvettes being used in MP. It feels too cheap to me.

The way it is now, if you get salvaged then you most likely deserved to get salvaged by doing something silly like sending your BC all alone to an enemy MS. But to have to worry about them as viable military units in the middle of a raging battle? Hmmm I don’t know about this one.

There is also the old Hyperspace + GW + Salvage trick - I have seen this on occasion,

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What about keeping vettes in a cloak and then surprising the enemy.

So… basically some people want to nerf/dump the salcap and also keep anyone else from using them because it doesn’t line up with your playing style? Those “other” ways to win are still available either way. I’m just looking for more game play options.

[quote=“Migz_DH, post:7, topic:1522772”]Right. That’s why I wrote…

Also, more likely many of the Salvage Corvettes would be destroyed, so let’s say half of them bite it.
[/quote]
No. Half would not survive. You would be lucky if ‘any’ survived in this type of scenario.

That’s your right to be able to choose. The way it stands now there is no real choice (especially for MP) unless you use the pause/reload"cheat" against the AI or SP missions.

All me, and others are looking for is the option of being able to actually use salcaps in MP and in SP with some degree of success. We’d like the ‘option’.

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Why are you implying that I want to further weaken Salvage Corvettes? I haven’t said that. I’ve just repeated that as far as the HW1R campaign is concerned, Salvage Corvettes are useful in their current state.


[quote=“herbyguitar, post:11, topic:1522772”]The way it stands now there is no real choice (especially for MP) unless you use the pause/reload"cheat" against the AI or SP missions
[/quote]

Since the Pause feature is part of the game and thus intended to be used, I’m not sure why you’d call it a cheat. If you prefer not to use that feature in order to make the game more difficult, I think that’s great, and you’re more than welcome to, but disparaging players who use it by saying it’s cheating is ungracious and wrong.

OK. I’m backing up a bit.

Sorry if I offended anyone. I never wanted to imply anyone was actually ‘cheating’ to use the pause button. I use it myself. I just drew a blank as to an appropriate word. I should have used a different term.

I also never wanted to imply that you wanted to further weaken the salcap. I was referencing the original game and how it compares (nerfed) to the salcap now. The salcap is not very useful to an MP game the way it stands and I think the cap could be raised in order to make it more useful without ruining the game in any way.

Not wanting to cause trouble. Sometimes things don’t come out the way I intend them to.

Ok, no problem. :slight_smile:

With regards to multiplayer, I again, won’t voice opinions since I don’t play it.

I hope some other active players who do will sound off before too long.

Would raising the cap actually make Salvettes more viable, though? It seems like a more direct buff is appropriate, after which their unit caps may be fine as-is.

Or, in addition to the list of alternative possibilities I made earlier, here’s another one: move Salvage Corvette’s cap from Corvettes into a separate category, or add them to support, and increase the support cap.

That’d allow HW1 race players in multiplayer to make Salvage Corvettes without sacrificing the combat potential of the other corvettes. (I don’t suggest doing this for the campaign.)

If this were done, the Marine Frigate would probably require a change or two as well.

I understand. Unfortunately, I can’t choose people being cheap against me in MP. I’m a firm believer in salvage corvettes not being military units. It should take the ultimate skill and best of circumstances for a player to pull of a successful salvage in heated exchanges.

Unless I am mistaken, as it is now, one salvage vette latched onto a unit nullifies its hyper space and movement capabilities.

I think Boarding frigates are much more effective, and that is why I think that there is no issue to make the salvettes more viable.

But I’m clearly against placing them in another category other than corvettes, because the player must sacrifice corvette firepower for tactical advantage, but an option could be to have them slow but with enough armor to allow both players react in the situation of an encounter. In the original they were slightly faster than frigates but were the slowest between the corvettes along with the minelayer corvettes, making them challenging to use but still viable.

About the armor, originally they were able to withstand several Ion cannon hits, but if these are made to withstand around 2 or 3 should be enough.

I also think they should be in the corvette class and not have an individual unit cap but a generic corvette cap.

It would also be nice if they could stand one full ion hit without blowing up. Two hits to destroy them, not just one.

I don’t see these changes being out of line or a problem. It would open up their usability in MP and allow for greater diversity of play in SP. I just see it as more strategic and tactical play options.

The only change I think is needed is the same rule as marine frigates - you lose control/hyperspacing at half capture. For salvettes, I would make this (n corvettes for control loss) = (n corvettes for capture)/2 then rounded up. If you need 2 corvettes, 1 stops you. If you need 5, 3 stops you, 2 has no deleterious effects. That stops putting 1 corvette onto something and screwing everything up. It is possible this has already been changed (I don’t see salvage corvettes used often) but it is needed.

Also, Vagyr heavy missiles should be able to hit them, especially when they are attached to something. Basic rule: If it is immune to grav-wells, anti-frigate+ weapons should hit (missiles mainly). Right now, if you tell a HMF to attack a salvette it won’t fire its main battery.