Severe inferiority of Hiigaran race in comparison to Taiidan and even Vaygr in its current pre patch state

Omni,

I do not mind losses. Not at all as these gives you best opportunities for improvement.

I do mind tho consistent, skilled, “racially dependent” 1v1 losses. They’re indicative of a problem, in my mind at least.

Regards. GhostRider.

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I think that once the scout and flak frigate issues are fixed things will be a bit better. They are also buffing gunships and gun plats, so basically every Hig anti-swarm unit is currently underpowered. Give them time to make fixes.

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Hiig vs vaygr brawl

hiig (me) full fleet of dessies + double fct 1 ru patch the other gotten mopped Flash vaygr 2x hmfs 1 patch gotten mopped as well both of us on around 13 collectors.

my 5 fully upgraded dessies kill around 5 hmfs ( NON UPGRADED) on 2 (2!!! lol) fcts result full loss of destroyer fleet.

Destroyers are sooo nerfed it aint funny.

I know this patch will give dessies back some of their mojo i dont know if it was enough or not. The more i play and attempt to utilize dessies more i feel like hiig dessie nerf was not needed at all.

My previous position was that nerf was needed but only in hps or dps not both, now i dont know. My success of destroyer tactic as a counter to various frigate rushes was … hmm may be 1-2 games out of 30.

Close to impossible to pull off.

Cloaked, feel free to test it out. Im fairly certain u’ll arrive to the same conclusion. Overall i felt that hiig clearly becoming quite an inferior race in comparison to Taiidan and even Vaygr.

If there is something im not utilizing and i should please let me know.

End of the game Flash gets 3 missile vettes i get swarm and kill his missile vettes and mop every collector he has. He with his hmf leftover kills 400.000 hp mothership 1 battlecruiser ship yard and carrier and all of my collectors as well.

Result of the game i lost with 8 interceptors left and every cap ship getting killed.

You decide…

p.s. At this point i told to my self after 50 shield games if i dont get at least 20% skilled wins vs 80% skilled losses (i only expect to win 20% of the time and lose 80% this is very very reasonable goal for 13 year vet) i would be forced with heavy heart to start learning Taiidan or Vaygr as hiigaran just becoming less and less viable as a tool for competitive 1v1 brawls. Currently it is more like 5% wins 95% losses when playing against different races.

Now this is not me saying it is so, mine is just an opinion, if someone have other opinions please voice them up so we all can learn. My impressions tho backed up by very heavy gaming hours as many of you guys and gals already know.

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Do Hig DDs focus fire effectively? It would explain a lot if they are shotgunning it against frigate swarms.

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MaxL, my dds were on aggressive/aggressive and i did microed them in quite a hands on manner.

Short answer to your question is i believe from micro point yes dds were microed decently. No major mistakes.

It is easier to micro DDs in comparison to frigs, at least that is my personal experience.

p.s. During that battle we had nothing else but only hmfs and dds so not like we had to spread focus across different flanks or micro multiple fleets.

Both of us could focus on the battle that means that in skilled game chance neither opponent will make major mistake as it is easy to focus on the battle and micro it out.

GHost.

In the Patch Preview, hiig/vay destroyers are close to where they used to be. Everyone seems to agree their health was over-nerfed in the 2.0 Patch. Their attack was actually buffed 5% vs frigs in 2.0 though (2.0 Patch Balance Changes).

Now I guess you know how hw1 races felt in HWR 1.3 with such weak destroyers. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I mean that even though you told the DDs to micro, did they actually do it. Also, sorry about that demon’s den game - I randomly crashed out.

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no problem Max, gg

I hear ya Cloaked. I believe what i see tho. Im working on bringing Flash into the forums, trying to friend him on steam. He im certain can confirm ratio of kills vs losses. So when two full fleets brawl ti is very close as to each destroyer for each frig exchange. That bad… (id say around 6 frigs at most t hat is what i’ve killed in that game)

Hmm, ok. Well something aint right tho. You are welcome to lab it out with me.

Get full fleet of hmfs i go get 5 dessies. I fully upgrade mine and get double fct and you dont upgrade yours and we clash.

Lets see the outcome. :slight_smile: Hey may be my eyes deceiving me and ive killed more frigs. Of course he kept pumping. *

I should really start to record these games heh

Regards. Ghost.

I’m not saying that destroyers should win against hmfs. (tho it should be fairly close with double fct). At least let hiigaran dessie fleet dent hmfs and kill half of their fleet 11 or so frigs before dying. My point was NOT that destroyers should win or even i should have won heh. My point was that losing 5 dessies on double fct and killing only few hmfs, in short barely denting his fleet without him having defense field frigs is unacceptable (as he is vaygr and NO command vettes).

This is not right. I’ll stick to my opinion. Anyone you are welcome to test it out and either prove or disprove my findings. All is well anyways. We all trying to make this game better.

Just did two tests in the Patch Preview:
5 Hiig Destroyers vs 21 Vaygr HMF with target firing = 2 HMF both times. Results will vary, but this was about the same in HWR 1.3 and hw2c (too sleepy to go grab actual numbers).

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The DDs should win that fight - they are supposed to counter frigates. Considering how much easier HMFs are to get and how much cheaper and faster they are to replace, 5 DDs should take all 21 down and still have at least 1 DD + another at low HP.

5 DDs should beat 21 HMFs, which beat 2 BCs, which beat 5 DDs. Bring back the triangle!

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That would require a destroyer buff over HWR 1.3 / hw2c. A better option would be to bump the destroyer unit cap to 6. Hiig destroyers were still among the best ships in hw2c though, and they were unit capped at 5 back then.

6 Hiig Destroyers vs 21 Vaygr HMF with target firing = 3 Destroyers (one half health)
6 Hiig Destroyers vs 2 Hiig Battlecruisers with target firing = 1 battlecruiser (3/4 health)
21 frigs should beat 2 battlecruisers, which makes a nice balance triangle. This kinda looks nice actually, just added it on to #6 in the balance issues.

Seriously time to zzz for me…

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Good solution

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I agree on 6 dds.

When (it is a big w word heh) it will happen it’ll be my pleasure to revise my post/thread.

With that being said with things as they are now if I see 21 hmfs and I got 5 dds I will not engage and will run.

If I can’t run I’ll rotate cloak and bc up as fast as I can while attempting to wipe my opponents economy.

Anyone else feeling like engaging 21 hmfs from active, hmf pumping opponent… (looks@C^^) Good luck, I know better heh as Hiig dessies are…

Wanted to use word horrible but I’d say severely diminished/suppressed in their offensive capabilities as a frigate counter and much, much worse than Taiidan beam destroyers due to Tai counterpart being an instant dps machine.

God forbid hmfer gets command vettes before I get swarm and my bcs probably won’t help.

Now you may ask why not frigates? With vaygr it’s a bad move as he can get dessies super easy after hmfs, much faster then lvl1 bcs as this requires some serious ru management skills especially on a single ru patch. Defense field? Would help but will not switch the battle in my favor, not at all. (Need to lab)

Bombers? Don’t think so I may kill extra few frigates of his, he either gets 3 or so assaults to marinate my bombers while swarming up and mopping up my cools = gg.

Heh I do feel as Hiig becoming incredibly inferior and I am sorry to disagree Cloaked.

I hold tremendous amount of respect for your efforts in this community.

I cannot name one good thing about Hiig destroyers in their current state.

They even became pretty bad at killing collectors as I’ve tried to mop with hyper dd.

Hiigs only viable option is to attempt and hold long enough with frigs to dd up or bc up which easier said than done.

Please note that my frustrations were slowly boiling over the course of many games.

Yesterday’s games were the tipping point which prompted me to go to the forums.

It is ok, the non rant feedback is always welcome.

I will agree that in the current state solo destroyers might be risky, that is a conclusion that me and cloaked got on testing, a long ago, ions to dd is indeed better.

But this is also about hw2, and rush dd were a valid option, so it is being looked at, and with the small buff and the change to a 6 cap it might work again.

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Appreciate the feedback Herby, Max, Cloaked & Kadeshi.

Quick clarify in hmf vs dd game everything was on a skilled level from both Flash and my self. My first dd came at 5:31 and was already forcing flash off his patch at 5:50 while he was getting his second hmf on imp prod grrrrr hehe. Vaggy and their early imp prod. ^^

Both of us were on a very tight build schedule. So it was not one of these games were u sipping margaritas from luxury quarters in command deck of ur mothership while building ur seventeenth collector haha.

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I am honestly not sure if increasing the DD cap will help a lot early-mid game. With frigates, I notice Vagyr tends to make a second CC, push them forward and spam produce-HMFs so fast that if you can maintain unit cap even against significant opposition.

Basically, 21 HMFs engage 6 DDs, but every time a HMF or DD dies another one starts building just outside of missile range. By the time you lose your first 21 HMFs you likely have at least 6 more (3 production rounds) having entered the fight, so say that evens it so there are only 2 DDs left facing the 6 HMFs. You then have 2 DDs + production vs 6-8 HMFs + production (9-12 if you have a 3rd CC or the flagship moved up). I am not sure if 2 DDs can kill the HMFs faster than they are built, if that many are left at all.

I am not 100% sure, but I think FFs get a bit too big of an edge from being CC buildable (you can never make more than 2 DDs in parallel, and you need a SY for that which will never be as close to the front line as a CC or MS can get), so you essentially end up replacing losses during the battle and running over the DDs which can’t be replaced as easily.

There is also the fact that you often start the fight before more than 2 DDs are built, and you can get 21 HMFs way faster than 5-6 DDs and likely even faster than one BC for Hig.

Hig is a bit screwed frigate vs frigate, since torps can’t compete with HMFs and Ions require the advanced research module, adding enough of a delay for Vagyr to reach spam-levels of ships.

The only techniques I have seen work for Hig is swarm (with support from another player), torpspam (supporting a swarm or HMF spam) and Ion Spam (which is basically a slightly slower HMF spam.)

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An excellent point and i concur Max.

Flash was pumping hmfs and i was pumping double dds (if i was on single dd would have died twice as fast heh) if we should have done it indefinitely which we have not. I would get overrun completely in 2 minutes tops which im actuall ok with it as vaygr gets early improved production. In that shield game i was never able to get to imp prod as rus were extremely tight and io made a judgement call on just ding 2x dd on a single patch rather than doing single dd on imp prod.

Vaygr ability spam out hmfs now is just what every vaygr player is doing now.

In the games I have played, that is all vaygr does now. I don’t even see any vaygr strike craft any longer. It’s hmfs and dds all the way for vaygr and once they max, they just pass em along and continue spamming.

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Also extremely effective.

Flashes first win against me on shield in ever (literally). Congratulated him yesterday on beating my hiig as vaygr. He goes few assaults with hmf switch, i go full fleet of bombers with destroyer switch.

These assaults thore through my bomber fleet in… Seconds. 13 unit bomber fleet. After losing all my bombers i could not help but be completely froze, staring at the screen processing what just happened in mere seconds. I think i killed 2 assaults frigs before my WHOLE bomber fleet just went boom. And my destroyer switch did not mattered as these hmfs wtfbbqmaximuspwned everything that is big and that moves in their path.

Harsh lesson for me and kudos to Flash utilizing pre patch (the one that is about to be deployed by gearbox hopefully sonner than later ^^) Vaygr correctly. I knew that post this (2.000 big bertha) patch i’ll pretty much have to start from scratch or fairly close to it. ^^

I will say that all the hiig builds mentioned above dont sound ideal for shield. Heres a few very strong options vs vaygr building assault craft then HMF on shield:

  1. 14 coll > ints > 1x DD + 1x ions
  2. 14 coll > ints > 2x ions > 1x DD + 1x ions
  3. 15/16 coll > ints > 2nd cc > 1x DD + 2x ions

For #1 and 2 if you cant break him you can add colls and try to drop a SY with your CC later in the game for 2x DD + 1x Frig. Dropping a SY is a huge risk on shield though (its a ton of ru that isnt immediately going into combat units on a tiny map).

Heres a detailed writeup for the first option. Its for hw2c/HWR1.3 but still largely applies to HWR 2.1:
http://demonclan.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=158&sid=3ccadab615c979a4e1dbe91b48e5af45

After the 2.0 patch though, I wouldnt recommend FCTs until the late game when you have a big fleet. (FCT/command vettes got nerfed to balance vs hw1 late game.) They cost a lot and its prolly better to sink that into more attack units, improved manufacturing, DFF, minelayers, pulsar etc. All of which will do great vs vaygr frigs.

Im out of town this weekend but Id be happy to challenge any vaygr takers on shield next week in the Patch Preview. I can record it for anyone feeling hiig blues. It wasnt long ago (HWR 1.3/hw2c) when vaygr was at a huge disadvantage on shield.

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