Severe inferiority of Hiigaran race in comparison to Taiidan and even Vaygr in its current pre patch state

About 1 hour ago played shield game with Flash.

He attacked me initially at around 8 minute mark. I’ve repelled the attack. We went on building up.

Game went for i believe around 40 minutes.

At the end he had full swarm (and he did not even built multi guns he built heavy vettes so confident he was of his victory) his frigate composition was 10 assaults and rest ions. And at the very last minute (more like 30 seconds of the battle) he had bc which got popped fairly swiftly. I had 4 destroyers 1 bc before battle begun 3!!! tower control units in proximity to his ships. End of the battle. He loses mothership and escapes with 2 carriers. I lose all of my swarm (on 3 hahaha tower control units lol this is just utterly plain wrong guys, cmon ^^, either tone down Taiidan or Up Hiigaran, swarm balance between Taiidan and Hiigaran needs to be thoroughly retested or assault frigates needs to get revisited or make pulses stronger, i do not know.

I knew that Taiidan is overpowered on small maps such as shield but having superior amount of destroyers and battlecruisers and 3 towercontrol units lol. Id fairly certainly say i should have won swarm battle with pulsars and swarm on 3 tower control units as heavy corvettes are more of an anti frigate unit rather than swarm in traditional sense. Ok if you would like to make it hard for hiigaran fine, lets make sure hw1 still win but i should NOT lose ALL of my swarm on 3 control units. That is completely broken.

Apologies for the harsh and a bit of a… spirited post but spending 40 minutes of my time only to lose all swarm and concede the game after pwning Flash’s mothership and all of his frigs with me having 3 destroyers and 2 bcs left (1 was at 15% structure and second bc got built shortly after final battle ended) that is not how i envisioned the ending of this game heh.
At the very end (not the battle but actual game before conceding) i lost all of my destroyers to his heavy vettes 1 bc and all of my collectors. He had 2 carriers back ru spot and was trying to sneak in collectors to collect in front of my nose lol

I am sorry Flash may disagree however, i’ve completely had this battle through superior ru management and build order with Flash having idle collector for close to 2 minutes in the beginning of the game near the carrier, it did not stuck you just did not move it lol. :wink:

I’m also fairly certain my ru management is pretty good, it was very hard to shuffle things around with close to no ru lag and to spit out 3 tower controls, i was clicking mouse and pressing keys like madman heh.

Anyways this is FYI to Gearbox and folks who was testing Taiidan and Hiigaran to let them know that:

Either assault frigs op. Or Tai swarm is op. I wish i had more information but that was a very fluid game.

I know we bouncing around taiidan assault frigs too weak i believe some year or so ago we need to make them stronger now we moved into opposite direction, either swarm or assault frigs so strong that hiiga swarm + pulse on 3 tower control units does not stand the chance.

I appreciate anyone who was reading my rant.

I’ve tried to overcome Taiidan during id say 30 or so shield games after patch, i’ve tried it all. I do not believe it is my severe lack of skill the reason that I absolutely can not beat skilled Taiidan.

Fairly certain there are other reasons…

I do not mind losing to Taiidan at all however during 30 or so shield games i did not just lost i was utterly obliterated. This is not counting shield games ive played against intermediate and newbish opponents, sure i did won but that does not count.

I very much appreciate time Gearbox and Testers vested to make things better. These balance issues i could see being fairly easy to fix from the code point of view as these are just numbers in weapon and other “parameter” files. We just need to find golden middle.

With best regards. GhostRider.

EDIT1. Forgot to mention that i had full fleet of frigs as well.
EDIT2. To preempt some questions. One question could be raised to me “at what point you could say that balance between Taiidan and Hiigaran is good”. My answer would be that i would be fairly content that things are balanced if i would lose 70-80% of all shield games vs skilled Taiidan and win 20/30%. At the moment my ratio is 100%/0.

I could not win against skilled Taiidan not a single time. Not once. That prompts me to believe that there are severe and valid balance issue between these two races, and yes i have no problem with Taiidan/Kushan being stronger races on small maps due to racial asymmetry, it was always like that and i think it should be preserved. However the more i play 1v1s and more i lose vs skilled against whom i could win fairly easy with hw2 vs hw2, i start to believe that there are indeed valid balance issues.

Assault frigates are too armored and potent

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GhostRider, see the 2.1 Patch Balance Issues thread.

Due to these balance issues, Kushan/Taiidan can currently beat Hiigaran/Vaygr 100% of the time on shield in under 10 minutes by simply rushing with scouts and interceptors. The biggest issue is an oversight in the code that gave hw1 scouts double their intended damage vs fighters. There are also many other balance issues in that thread that may have contributed to your frustration.

Until the next patch arrives, you can try the Patch Preview which has already resolved many of the balance issues.

Some comments:
Kushan and Taiidan are nearly identical, other than a few unique ships.

As of the 2.0 patch, Heavy corvettes are anti-corvette ships, that are also pretty good vs frigates and capital ships like in hw1c. They are similar to pulsar corvettes now. Heavy and pulsar corvettes aren’t very good vs fighters anymore. Heavy corvettes are a bit better than pulsars though, as 42 heavy corvettes costs significantly more than 42 pulsars. So you may want to add in a couple torps.

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Hmm i see, so may be i haven’t done that bad by being able to hold for 40 minutes on shield.

Ok, thanks for putting it into perspective for me. ^^

The only thing that saved me from 8 min rush was double fct.

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No one likes to lose…especially you, Sasha.

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Omni,

I do not mind losses. Not at all as these gives you best opportunities for improvement.

I do mind tho consistent, skilled, “racially dependent” 1v1 losses. They’re indicative of a problem, in my mind at least.

Regards. GhostRider.

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I think that once the scout and flak frigate issues are fixed things will be a bit better. They are also buffing gunships and gun plats, so basically every Hig anti-swarm unit is currently underpowered. Give them time to make fixes.

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Hiig vs vaygr brawl

hiig (me) full fleet of dessies + double fct 1 ru patch the other gotten mopped Flash vaygr 2x hmfs 1 patch gotten mopped as well both of us on around 13 collectors.

my 5 fully upgraded dessies kill around 5 hmfs ( NON UPGRADED) on 2 (2!!! lol) fcts result full loss of destroyer fleet.

Destroyers are sooo nerfed it aint funny.

I know this patch will give dessies back some of their mojo i dont know if it was enough or not. The more i play and attempt to utilize dessies more i feel like hiig dessie nerf was not needed at all.

My previous position was that nerf was needed but only in hps or dps not both, now i dont know. My success of destroyer tactic as a counter to various frigate rushes was … hmm may be 1-2 games out of 30.

Close to impossible to pull off.

Cloaked, feel free to test it out. Im fairly certain u’ll arrive to the same conclusion. Overall i felt that hiig clearly becoming quite an inferior race in comparison to Taiidan and even Vaygr.

If there is something im not utilizing and i should please let me know.

End of the game Flash gets 3 missile vettes i get swarm and kill his missile vettes and mop every collector he has. He with his hmf leftover kills 400.000 hp mothership 1 battlecruiser ship yard and carrier and all of my collectors as well.

Result of the game i lost with 8 interceptors left and every cap ship getting killed.

You decide…

p.s. At this point i told to my self after 50 shield games if i dont get at least 20% skilled wins vs 80% skilled losses (i only expect to win 20% of the time and lose 80% this is very very reasonable goal for 13 year vet) i would be forced with heavy heart to start learning Taiidan or Vaygr as hiigaran just becoming less and less viable as a tool for competitive 1v1 brawls. Currently it is more like 5% wins 95% losses when playing against different races.

Now this is not me saying it is so, mine is just an opinion, if someone have other opinions please voice them up so we all can learn. My impressions tho backed up by very heavy gaming hours as many of you guys and gals already know.

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Do Hig DDs focus fire effectively? It would explain a lot if they are shotgunning it against frigate swarms.

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MaxL, my dds were on aggressive/aggressive and i did microed them in quite a hands on manner.

Short answer to your question is i believe from micro point yes dds were microed decently. No major mistakes.

It is easier to micro DDs in comparison to frigs, at least that is my personal experience.

p.s. During that battle we had nothing else but only hmfs and dds so not like we had to spread focus across different flanks or micro multiple fleets.

Both of us could focus on the battle that means that in skilled game chance neither opponent will make major mistake as it is easy to focus on the battle and micro it out.

GHost.

In the Patch Preview, hiig/vay destroyers are close to where they used to be. Everyone seems to agree their health was over-nerfed in the 2.0 Patch. Their attack was actually buffed 5% vs frigs in 2.0 though (2.0 Patch Balance Changes).

Now I guess you know how hw1 races felt in HWR 1.3 with such weak destroyers. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I mean that even though you told the DDs to micro, did they actually do it. Also, sorry about that demon’s den game - I randomly crashed out.

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no problem Max, gg

I hear ya Cloaked. I believe what i see tho. Im working on bringing Flash into the forums, trying to friend him on steam. He im certain can confirm ratio of kills vs losses. So when two full fleets brawl ti is very close as to each destroyer for each frig exchange. That bad… (id say around 6 frigs at most t hat is what i’ve killed in that game)

Hmm, ok. Well something aint right tho. You are welcome to lab it out with me.

Get full fleet of hmfs i go get 5 dessies. I fully upgrade mine and get double fct and you dont upgrade yours and we clash.

Lets see the outcome. :slight_smile: Hey may be my eyes deceiving me and ive killed more frigs. Of course he kept pumping. *

I should really start to record these games heh

Regards. Ghost.

I’m not saying that destroyers should win against hmfs. (tho it should be fairly close with double fct). At least let hiigaran dessie fleet dent hmfs and kill half of their fleet 11 or so frigs before dying. My point was NOT that destroyers should win or even i should have won heh. My point was that losing 5 dessies on double fct and killing only few hmfs, in short barely denting his fleet without him having defense field frigs is unacceptable (as he is vaygr and NO command vettes).

This is not right. I’ll stick to my opinion. Anyone you are welcome to test it out and either prove or disprove my findings. All is well anyways. We all trying to make this game better.

Just did two tests in the Patch Preview:
5 Hiig Destroyers vs 21 Vaygr HMF with target firing = 2 HMF both times. Results will vary, but this was about the same in HWR 1.3 and hw2c (too sleepy to go grab actual numbers).

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The DDs should win that fight - they are supposed to counter frigates. Considering how much easier HMFs are to get and how much cheaper and faster they are to replace, 5 DDs should take all 21 down and still have at least 1 DD + another at low HP.

5 DDs should beat 21 HMFs, which beat 2 BCs, which beat 5 DDs. Bring back the triangle!

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That would require a destroyer buff over HWR 1.3 / hw2c. A better option would be to bump the destroyer unit cap to 6. Hiig destroyers were still among the best ships in hw2c though, and they were unit capped at 5 back then.

6 Hiig Destroyers vs 21 Vaygr HMF with target firing = 3 Destroyers (one half health)
6 Hiig Destroyers vs 2 Hiig Battlecruisers with target firing = 1 battlecruiser (3/4 health)
21 frigs should beat 2 battlecruisers, which makes a nice balance triangle. This kinda looks nice actually, just added it on to #6 in the balance issues.

Seriously time to zzz for me…

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Good solution

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I agree on 6 dds.

When (it is a big w word heh) it will happen it’ll be my pleasure to revise my post/thread.

With that being said with things as they are now if I see 21 hmfs and I got 5 dds I will not engage and will run.

If I can’t run I’ll rotate cloak and bc up as fast as I can while attempting to wipe my opponents economy.

Anyone else feeling like engaging 21 hmfs from active, hmf pumping opponent… (looks@C^^) Good luck, I know better heh as Hiig dessies are…

Wanted to use word horrible but I’d say severely diminished/suppressed in their offensive capabilities as a frigate counter and much, much worse than Taiidan beam destroyers due to Tai counterpart being an instant dps machine.

God forbid hmfer gets command vettes before I get swarm and my bcs probably won’t help.

Now you may ask why not frigates? With vaygr it’s a bad move as he can get dessies super easy after hmfs, much faster then lvl1 bcs as this requires some serious ru management skills especially on a single ru patch. Defense field? Would help but will not switch the battle in my favor, not at all. (Need to lab)

Bombers? Don’t think so I may kill extra few frigates of his, he either gets 3 or so assaults to marinate my bombers while swarming up and mopping up my cools = gg.

Heh I do feel as Hiig becoming incredibly inferior and I am sorry to disagree Cloaked.

I hold tremendous amount of respect for your efforts in this community.

I cannot name one good thing about Hiig destroyers in their current state.

They even became pretty bad at killing collectors as I’ve tried to mop with hyper dd.

Hiigs only viable option is to attempt and hold long enough with frigs to dd up or bc up which easier said than done.

Please note that my frustrations were slowly boiling over the course of many games.

Yesterday’s games were the tipping point which prompted me to go to the forums.

It is ok, the non rant feedback is always welcome.

I will agree that in the current state solo destroyers might be risky, that is a conclusion that me and cloaked got on testing, a long ago, ions to dd is indeed better.

But this is also about hw2, and rush dd were a valid option, so it is being looked at, and with the small buff and the change to a 6 cap it might work again.

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Appreciate the feedback Herby, Max, Cloaked & Kadeshi.

Quick clarify in hmf vs dd game everything was on a skilled level from both Flash and my self. My first dd came at 5:31 and was already forcing flash off his patch at 5:50 while he was getting his second hmf on imp prod grrrrr hehe. Vaggy and their early imp prod. ^^

Both of us were on a very tight build schedule. So it was not one of these games were u sipping margaritas from luxury quarters in command deck of ur mothership while building ur seventeenth collector haha.

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