Severe inferiority of Hiigaran race in comparison to Taiidan and even Vaygr in its current pre patch state

I am honestly not sure if increasing the DD cap will help a lot early-mid game. With frigates, I notice Vagyr tends to make a second CC, push them forward and spam produce-HMFs so fast that if you can maintain unit cap even against significant opposition.

Basically, 21 HMFs engage 6 DDs, but every time a HMF or DD dies another one starts building just outside of missile range. By the time you lose your first 21 HMFs you likely have at least 6 more (3 production rounds) having entered the fight, so say that evens it so there are only 2 DDs left facing the 6 HMFs. You then have 2 DDs + production vs 6-8 HMFs + production (9-12 if you have a 3rd CC or the flagship moved up). I am not sure if 2 DDs can kill the HMFs faster than they are built, if that many are left at all.

I am not 100% sure, but I think FFs get a bit too big of an edge from being CC buildable (you can never make more than 2 DDs in parallel, and you need a SY for that which will never be as close to the front line as a CC or MS can get), so you essentially end up replacing losses during the battle and running over the DDs which can’t be replaced as easily.

There is also the fact that you often start the fight before more than 2 DDs are built, and you can get 21 HMFs way faster than 5-6 DDs and likely even faster than one BC for Hig.

Hig is a bit screwed frigate vs frigate, since torps can’t compete with HMFs and Ions require the advanced research module, adding enough of a delay for Vagyr to reach spam-levels of ships.

The only techniques I have seen work for Hig is swarm (with support from another player), torpspam (supporting a swarm or HMF spam) and Ion Spam (which is basically a slightly slower HMF spam.)

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An excellent point and i concur Max.

Flash was pumping hmfs and i was pumping double dds (if i was on single dd would have died twice as fast heh) if we should have done it indefinitely which we have not. I would get overrun completely in 2 minutes tops which im actuall ok with it as vaygr gets early improved production. In that shield game i was never able to get to imp prod as rus were extremely tight and io made a judgement call on just ding 2x dd on a single patch rather than doing single dd on imp prod.

Vaygr ability spam out hmfs now is just what every vaygr player is doing now.

In the games I have played, that is all vaygr does now. I don’t even see any vaygr strike craft any longer. It’s hmfs and dds all the way for vaygr and once they max, they just pass em along and continue spamming.

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Also extremely effective.

Flashes first win against me on shield in ever (literally). Congratulated him yesterday on beating my hiig as vaygr. He goes few assaults with hmf switch, i go full fleet of bombers with destroyer switch.

These assaults thore through my bomber fleet in… Seconds. 13 unit bomber fleet. After losing all my bombers i could not help but be completely froze, staring at the screen processing what just happened in mere seconds. I think i killed 2 assaults frigs before my WHOLE bomber fleet just went boom. And my destroyer switch did not mattered as these hmfs wtfbbqmaximuspwned everything that is big and that moves in their path.

Harsh lesson for me and kudos to Flash utilizing pre patch (the one that is about to be deployed by gearbox hopefully sonner than later ^^) Vaygr correctly. I knew that post this (2.000 big bertha) patch i’ll pretty much have to start from scratch or fairly close to it. ^^

I will say that all the hiig builds mentioned above dont sound ideal for shield. Heres a few very strong options vs vaygr building assault craft then HMF on shield:

  1. 14 coll > ints > 1x DD + 1x ions
  2. 14 coll > ints > 2x ions > 1x DD + 1x ions
  3. 15/16 coll > ints > 2nd cc > 1x DD + 2x ions

For #1 and 2 if you cant break him you can add colls and try to drop a SY with your CC later in the game for 2x DD + 1x Frig. Dropping a SY is a huge risk on shield though (its a ton of ru that isnt immediately going into combat units on a tiny map).

Heres a detailed writeup for the first option. Its for hw2c/HWR1.3 but still largely applies to HWR 2.1:
http://demonclan.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=158&sid=3ccadab615c979a4e1dbe91b48e5af45

After the 2.0 patch though, I wouldnt recommend FCTs until the late game when you have a big fleet. (FCT/command vettes got nerfed to balance vs hw1 late game.) They cost a lot and its prolly better to sink that into more attack units, improved manufacturing, DFF, minelayers, pulsar etc. All of which will do great vs vaygr frigs.

Im out of town this weekend but Id be happy to challenge any vaygr takers on shield next week in the Patch Preview. I can record it for anyone feeling hiig blues. It wasnt long ago (HWR 1.3/hw2c) when vaygr was at a huge disadvantage on shield.

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  1. In mind hybrid starts are counter productive. Obviously could be completely wrong. Ok, will give it a shot. Last time i did that start was in like 08 i believe vs Hiigaran (i think it was MiniEvil GENESIS as he was frig rushing me as hiigaran). Was successful however for some reason (Dont remember what that reason is) i did not particularly liked that start.
  2. Use it rarely. It is too… unaggressive, I like to hit opponents economy earlier in the game if i can. However this start may have better mojo mid/late game so… Fair enough. I rarely go 14 cols in skilled games.
  3. I adore this start but always thought of it as extremely risky vs skilled player. In general any time i tried to 3x up got punished. The way i see it if you 2x and you let your opponent spit out 3x branch out and not to get punished for it you doing something wrong.

It very well may be my weak spot and better players can pull it off.

Good feedback Cloaked. Time flies, yeah i remember demon forums, been a while tho i’ve visited. ^^

Ohh i would love nothing more then get schooled by u in 1v1. ;)) Told u got all that practice with these crazy amount of hours u put into the game support and QA just so u can pwn us all after patch comes out. ^^

I hear ya. -

Hope to see u around C for some weekend fun.

Ghosti.

EDIT1: On a fresh head next day. I’ve realized that during writing of my initial reply had a cocky/jack A moment lol as just said that number 1 was counterproductive without taking the time to explain why.

When you doing hybrid start you have to be concerned with leveling/upgrading units for both of these types involved in your start in Cs example these are destroyers and frigates so your ru expenses will go through the roof on these starts or that is my experience. That is what I’ve meant by counterproductive. With non hybrid start such as 2x swarm all u need is to level upgrades for it.

Here it is. Now we’re back onto the road of constructive feedback.

Apologies about yesterday as was shuffling few things and was rushing my replies.

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After hundreds of games on shield vs the top hw2c players, I generally regard #1 in the link above as the best hiig build on shield (if your opponents build allows for it of course). Everyone had their own opinions though, and many other builds were top notch. I think theres even more good builds in the patch preview.

Cost wise building 1 frig mod and upgrading ions is now a paltry 2000 ru (You will already have adv for imp ms manu, which is a must for DDs). Going sy on the other hand is hyper+sy+cap fac = 6300ru and a huge time delay. Thats usually gg vs ions or HMF on shield (in the right hands) in hw2c, HWR 1.3 and HWR 2.1.

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My thoughts on the matter…

Vaygr can get production upgrades with the research module (500 RUs, 30 seconds) and the capitalship facility (1250 RUs, 75seconds), while Hiigarans need research module (1500 RUs, 75seconds), adv. Research module (2250 RUs, 150 seconds) and capitalship facility (1800 RUs, 75 seconds). It’s 1750 RUs and 105 seconds vs 5550 RUs and 300 seconds.
Speaking of upgrades… Vaygr capship health upgrade is 3000 RUs and 90 seconds and capship speed upgrade is 1500 RUs and 60 seconds, while Hiigarans overall capship health upgrades are 6000 RUs and 310 seconds and overall capship speed upgrades are 3000 RUs and 160 seconds. Vaygr 3000 RUs and 90 seconds vs Hiigarans 6000 RUs and 310 seconds for health upgrades and Vaygr 1500 RUs and 60 seconds vs Hiigarans 3000 RUs and 160 seconds for speed upgrades. I think the situation is disadvantageous for Hiigarans now.
In HW2C, Vaygr could get production upgrades easier while Hiigarans could get capship health and speed upgrades easier, because of the respective costs and/or prerequisites. Now that Vaygr health and speed upgrades are easier to get because of their reduced cost, Vaygr now get the health and speed upgrades easier but Hiigarans don’t get production upgrades easier. That means earlier higher production plus upgraded destroyers for Vaygr.

I’d like to maintain some difference between Vaygr and Hiigarans, so I’m against making production upgrades available to Hiigarans soon after the research module.
In HW2C the adv. Research module was also the prerequisite for the second level speed and health upgrades, otherwise too easy to get for Hiigarans. But they are no more now. So the adv. Research module don’t givesecond level upgrades and, as consequence, it’s not needed as a limiter for second level upgrades anymore. I would simply reduce the building cost and building time for the adv. Research module, that’s no longer worth 2250 RUs and 150 seconds imho. Something like 1850-1650 RUs and 105 seconds…it’s still 1750 RUs and 105 seconds in total for Vaygr vs 5050-4950 RUs and 255 seconds for Hiigarans to get production upgrades. And asssault frigates are worth their value now and there’s Vaygr spamming heavy missile frigates so I don’t think it’s going to advantage Hiigarans over Vaygr.
I would also split Vaygr capship health and speed upgrades into combat capship and production capship upgrades, so that Vaygr upgrades don’t take too much, and increase the overall costs, so that they are not that cheaper in comparison to overall Hiigarans upgrades. Otherwise only increase Vaygr health and speed upgrades cost and time.

Your thoughts about mine?

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Finally was able to score one (key word one) victory against skilled Taiidan. One in over 40 skilled games played.

This is just reinforcing my belief that balance between hw1 and Hiigaran pretty much broken in its current pre-patch state.

I went for mid game expansion something very risky and something i havent tried before and it would be very very hard to pull of (for me) again.

Game ended up with hiigaran building 282 ships and taiidan 150 ships. Not trying to boast here as dont think id be able to pull it off again as there is no exact build, mid to late game was trying to squeeze quasi efficient 4x with numerous queues strop and go stop and go stop and go depends on the situation. Just like playing piano heh u consciously not certain as to where u go with it just as improvising.

Heavy ship battle ended up with me winning by tiiiiny margin. 1 bc left at 15% health. With my swarm again being completely gone. And my second patch 70% killed by his full swarm so had to do quick switch to smalls from heavies at 4x and attempt to get temporary superiority with burst 4xing Tai only for about a minute or so nothing more then switching heavy again and pushing.

In short very very small victory as 282 ships counts for nothing if most of them being killed by Tai haha. Sure it sounds awesome on paper but it is not.

Even ships that suppose to be fairly balanced in this prepatch state such as ions dds and bcs, still, sliiiight victory and he had hcs later in the game. I had bcs and ions and he had dessies and ions with heavies coming out.

Previous game i got mopped by trying to do classic 3x book counter. Ions to ions dds to dds bcs to hcs. And even with me shuffling mods non stop Tai gotten hc about a minute earlier by stepping through the build. So him getting ions me getting ions him getting dessies me getting dessies him getting hcs me getting bcs. In this order i was behind him by a minute no rus gotten touched during t hat previous game (before the last one which ive described earlier).

I surrendered immediately when his hc started to pound my shipyard with my bc being around 60% done.

I plead with Cloaked and gearbox (I know in another thread a lot of things gotten fixed which is great). CLoaked, id recommend for you to play around 10-15 fully fledged skilled shield games or small map games to fully understand the depth of hiig “castration” when it comes to balance of it vs hw1 which is 3x worse than against vaygr, it is hard but possible to deal with vaggies.

Was able to counter it with vette start in 35 minute shield game. I think this could be repeated.

See all the new/open issues in the Balance issues thread. #26 is as bad as issue #1 for balance.

Im on vacation this week, but Ill be sure to catch more games next week.

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Are you trying these games on the patch preview build, or in standard? Most of the problems you are running into have already been addressed (or at least looked at) already as balance issues. Cloaked et al. can’t just reprogram unit stats to match your observations - we need exhaustive testing to make sure nothing else gets broken when these issues are fixed. The 2.0 patch changes led to all these issues, and those were well-tested to begin with. Asymmetric balance is not easy - give the poor testers a break!

I still want to see corvette AI fixed however - they are not gun platforms.

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Most people in multiplayer are just playing 2.1 still.

I played several games on the patch preview vs Kadeshi last week when I noticed #26.

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Yeah i tried to get games on beta but there was no one around, lobby was empty (not sure why). So being lazy sob i switched back to “Big Bertha” patch as i call it.

Yes this win against Tai i described was on “broken” patch. I love the game heh so i play but issues frustrates *** out of me. :))) It is like a drug, i know it is bad for me but i still want it. heh

If there are people who play beta patch i’d gladly join you guys everyone on teamspeak tho still plays “Big Bertha”. ^^

EDIT: JUst re-read my reply and realized it was a bit on a ranty side. Apologies about my language as i love the game and feel passionate about things. Fairly certain after the patch substantial amount of banter will mellow out and we will be back to playing game. :sunny: ))