So let's not have OP in BL3

I do agree there where a lot of issues with balancing and loot “exploits” :stuck_out_tongue: creating big gaps in how lots of people played the game. Obviously they do not want everyone one shotting everything beacuse then rewards are meaningless. I honestly believe the reason Gee’s gate crush was never fixed is beacuse they would have had to completely re designe that fight or how the arena proccesed information. In the end the benefits didn’t outweigh the effort as it was one raid boss.
Just from looking at BL3 Character skill trees I can see the painstaking effort placed in to balance and consistency. Gone are the days where one Vault hunter had a tree just for sniper rifles. Now the tree will have “Gun Damage” “Accuracy” “Crit Damage” rather then “Sniper Rifle damage”. This extends to the idea of Support. Every character has one or two support skills among there trees. So every vault hunter can be a team player without feeling one dimensional or like the are missing out on being a Killer :rofl:

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Enemy scaling was definitely something you can feel being an issue in BL2 at higher difficulty especially when your use to playing alone. Some times content is just next to impossible even with a strong set up. Some content was designed for 4P which was something Gearbox tried to address but was less then successful seeing as mechanics still made a bunch of the raid bosses like Dragons, Son of Craw or Verra had mechanics designed around having a group of players to deal with varying simultaneous situations.

Having to fight 4 dragons on your own with all them targeting you at all times… I hope you are using the best possible set up otherwise that ain’t happening.

Even Digistruct Peak shows this at time. Bosses like Dunkinos mom, the four Assassins, and double Scorch are just way easier with at minimum one other body. Based on my experience the game actually gets easier in 2P the harder in 3P then again easier in 4P due to HP and damage scaling and fact that enemy spawns count dose not scale.

One of the big things about the designing things for 2p or more is that they made a lot of things impossible or nearly impossible to avoid. This isn’t so bad when the enemy has multiple targets and doesn’t focus fire one of us. Solo on the other hand gets stupid. That is my personal biggest problem with BL2.

TPS did a much better job in this regard. There are far fewer outright unavoidable damage traps.

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I like the challenge of the OP levels but whenever they decide to add more levels the whole system is thrown off balance. Pros and cons to everything I suppose.

POE?

Path of Exile

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I enjoy games like Diablo 3 and such but I feel more attached to games in the first person (or even over the shoulder) genre. I did try path of exile. Seemed decent.

PoE has its own problems. They let life leech get too powerful so the only way they can make their game have any challenge is giant damage spikes. For ages the only thing that people considered a threat were mobs that either reflected damage or one shot you with a mechanic that activates when they die. Still is that way but they made the one shots easier to spot and avoid.

I really don’t understand how people can complain about OP levels being too difficult. That’s exactly what they’re for! If you don’t want it to be so difficult then play at a lower difficulty level.
They implemented op levels because a small group of us weren’t being challenged enough. Don’t feel bad if you can’t do it.

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These people seem to want everything in the game to be free of any effort. I’ve seen a player using a slag hyperion sniper rifle to kill things and then complaining about UVHM being broken full of bullet sponge enemies. A reasonable player thinks “there must be something wrong with what I’m doing and I should change my build or my tactics”, these people think “there must be something wrong with the game and they should make it easier”.
And this is why they can’t just play on easier difficulty (no OP levels) as it would imply they’re bad players and they can’t accept it.

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I get the “hard mode is supposed to be hard” argument but the scaling in OP levels was just too janky. A gun underlevelled by 1 being leagues worse than an on-level one, melee damage being left behind, any amount of healthsteal percentage being better than any other defense, shields breaking instantly, etc etc.

Certain fundamental principles should be maintained even in a hard mode, imo. A good shield should always buy the player a few seconds under fire at least. So should damage reduction, shield recharge rate, health-on-kill skills. A melee build should continue to be as good as before. A good drop should last you a few levels.

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I actually found it challenging, for once.
It’s the only challenging part of the game to me.
Dont play nightmare mode when your actual skill is that of normal or hard mode, then complain that nightmare is too difficult.

I think you need to go watch some footage of people playing zero and krieg at op8, because this is absolutely not true, to address the simplest of the incorrect things you’ve claimed so far.

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I never said it’s impossible. But melee damage stops scaling into op levels dude, that’s fact. Roid shields make up for it but it’s still an oversight, imo.

Many people aren’t really complaining about it being too difficult, they’re complaining about over half the gear/skills becoming obsolete. And despite how “challenging” it is, there’s still ways to almost trivialize it. It just amplifies the game’s imbalances, which wouldn’t be a problem in a perfectly balanced game, but BL2 isn’t that, and arguably no game ever can be.

I think BL3 should have many playstyles that are equally viable in a “nightmare mode” first, THEN add nightmare mode, instead of just slapping some extra levels on the enemies and calling it a day.

I’ve already seen people worried that Moze’s mech will be useless lategame compared to just using guns. It’s not like there’s no precedent, if you spec into Krieg’s red and green tree in BL2, using your action skill is actually a hindrance, whereas it worked fine before the borked scaling. I think it’s fair not to want that.

PS: and not quite related, but drop rates should improve properly in nightmare mode. Seeing a single white or even green item drop in op8 is practically an insult, if you ask me.

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@Imit8m3 Exactly.

This is exactly my issue as well. I personally think the OP levels are a great idea with poor implementation. A lot of the issues started in UVHM, because the exponential level scaling formula combined with the x4 increase massively threw off weapon and skill balance, and little effort was done to ever fix this (at least when compared to other modern loot games, where gear and skill balance is usually a major priority). The OP levels further highlighted these problems.

It also never made any sense to me why your loot doesn’t just scale with you at the OP levels instead of having to refarm new loot at each OP level. The way they implemented these levels made it so only a small list of the game’s overall gear is viable, yet then you need to keep tediously refarming that gear (some of which is either damn near impossible to find even once or limited to quest rewards) as you progress through the OP levels if you want to keep your build intact. That always felt extremely counter intuitive. If I have an ultimate build with crazy hard to find gear that took years to find, I’m playing the OP levels to challenge myself while using those items, not because I want to level up and refarm them all over again.

Anyway, the level scaling in BL3 looks much closer to BL1, and yet they said Master Vault Hunter Mode is even more challenging than UVHM. They are clearly making BL3 with end-game in mind from the start, rather than a half-baked add on, so I am incredibly excited. I just wish they would have polished up BL2 a bit more, much like the UCP did for PC players.

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That’s an easy one to agree with!

I’ve also felt that class mods should only drop at blue or higher once you’re at a certain level or mode.

Same here. I find Borderlands infinitely more enjoyable than Diablo, but I just wish BL2 had anywhere near the same level of polish and that the end game and loot system were as well thought out.

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Same. I generally had issues with storage and found ways to deal with that. Letting my backpack get oversize via mission rewards and swapping off the ground. Or split screening in extra characters and offloading rare gear.

OP levels aren’t hard, they’re just dumb and force a specific playstyle that exploits certain broken abilities and skills. It’s just incredibly bad design. I’m also very sceptical about mrfedia3000’s anecdote, it seems extremely unlikely, that someone goes all the way up to UVHM without understanding how necessary the (bad) mechanic of slag is. It isn’t at all representative of most players who seriously play the game.

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