So who wants the Lady Fist?

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel BL:TPS Discussion
#60

The whole comparison with BL2 thing doesn’t work: not the same game, not the same scaling and not the same power level.

BL2 UVHM has health x4 and health regen
TPS UVHM has health x1.5 no regen

They are simply different games.
The Bee is in BL2… Strangely enough it’s not in TPS.
Unlisted pellets were everywhere in BL2… Almost inexistent in TPS.
Hell, even the lowly Infinity was deemed too powerful to be brought back and we got a nerfed version instead.
Think there’s a reason for that ?

Any argument involving a comparison between the BL2 lady fist and how it didn’t break the game there is nul and void.

Also, about the part where I have to prove that it generates significantly more DPS … I don’t get it.

I thought your point was that you didn’t care that it breaks the game… Not that you thought it wouldn’t do so.

So which is it ?
If it can be demonstrated that it would break the game would you change position? Of course not.

Considering that the bulk of your argument so far has been about how it’s just one character, it’s a matter of choice, Nisha is already broken anyway… All points to a position where you acknowledge that it’s unusually strong but you don’t think it’s a problem.

So what would displaying DPS numbers accomplish ?

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#61

Yea the scaling is different between the 2 games. But with slag in uvhm in bl2 it makes the two games compareable. At op 0 in bl2 and level 70 in the tps. It would feel ALMOST the same using the lady fist normally in the tps compared to using it against slag enemies in bl2 at op 0. It doesnt break bl2 and i dont think it would break tps. But with that being said i do agree that it would be ridiculous with nisha and would make the game easy. But there are already multiple guns with her that make the game way to easy. So it doesnt really matter if they add it or not in my opinion.

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#62

There’s 2 different questions here:
1: would the lady fist break the game/ be too strong ?

2: If so, should it still be added to the game?

My answer to 2 is no. And not just because I personally dislike the idea… It’s just because it makes sense to avoid things that break the game. Gearbox has done so numerous times and I’m confident that they share my opinion that overpowered gear is to be avoided when possible.

My answer to question 1 is more like “I think so”
With no actual testing, I can only speculate.
If I’m wrong, I have no issue whatsoever about including the fist in the game. I’ll even be happy to have more options.

I’m not going to spend time debating if it really is overpowered or not because it’s just speculations and perceptions. And no I’m not gonna try and post DPS numbers relating to enemy health or anything of the sort to try and “convince” anyone that my hunch is good. That part does interests me but not for debate purpose.

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#63

If I’ve gone solo through OP8 as Maya and Axton, and have solo kills on multiple OP8 raid bosses with the Bee, couldn’t it be argued that my playstyle might make sense? I submit that there are two metrics by which we can rate ‘sensibility’ in a video game: fun and success. I’m having fun and winning. I’m a learner, so I am open to suggestions relating to how it may not make sense to win or have fun in the manner in which I do.

As for the Lady Fist:
I’m indifferent.

I don’t see believe that it actually creates new problems, since there are already people abusing the game with mods and editors. People who are already watching out for elements they disagree with will continue to exclude those elements. People who enjoy the other elements will still happily use them. That’s an informed prediction, based on current state.

I think this issue is being overthought.

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#64

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
The whole comparison with BL2 thing doesn’t work: not the same game, not the same scaling and not the same power level.
[/quote] Well, ya gotta use some math, man. I don’t know the values, but if you share them with me, I’ll do the math for you, if you like

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
BL2 UVHM has health x4 and health regenTPS UVHM has health x1.5 no regen
[/quote] Health regen probably isn’t too important in this particular case. I’d guess with a build that boosts crit bonus involving the lady fist, that the health regen is a nominal factor.

More importantly, I think you might want to consider that the slag X3 mitigates BL2 enemies stiffer health

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
Any argument involving a comparison between the BL2 lady fist and how it didn’t break the game there is nul and void.
[/quote] Really, Because the math doesn’t support your conclusion?

You’re saying that Nisha will be OP because of a 1600% crit damage. I countered that BL2 classes can generate that simply using a relic/COM withoiut even considering crit boosts for any other skill or the use of the bee.

That’s not a comparison between absolute values, it’s a bonus percentage.To put this another way: the LF in TPS will likely have a card damage that differs from the card damage of a level 70 BL2 LF, just as a crit prefix sniper will have a different base damage as it’s same -level counterpart in BL2. But the crit bonus will not be reduced, because that doesn’t matter to the difference in leveling between the games.

You ignore that the 1600% crit bonus can not only be easily duplicated by the BL2 classes, but also surpassed by some. So, the 1600% crit bonus thing is a dead end , but you carried on. So, finally, I said to you, "OK, if you can demonstrate that somehow, Nisha’s DPS/enemy health ratio is significantly greater than the Bl2 classes’ DPS/enemy health ratio using the LF, then you will have demonstrated that Niisha’a OFEOY skill makes her OP. (And we’ll just ignore bore, money shot, etc).

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
I thought your point was that you didn’t care that it breaks the game… Not that you thought it wouldn’t do so.[/quote] That is my point. I’ve said it several times - that certain skills of various classes can make a certain gun, weapon type, or any gun at all OP, so why should the fact that Nisha’s action skill (meaning showdown, OFROY, tombstone) makes the Lf Op mean that the Lf can’t be in the game.

I didn’t even think anything about the specifics of the opposing argument, because the two arguments are in entirely different frames - one isn’t the opposite of the other. but then when you told me very specifically what your objection was, I immediately recognized that it wasn’t a good argument, because the BL2 classes can easily boost the LF crit bonus to 1600%…

And I thought, that i don’t even really need to argue a counter-argument to the proposition that the Lady fist need to be excluded, I can just point out that the original proposition is false. so, there no reason to not want it in the game

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
Considering that the bulk of your argument so far has been about how it’s just one character,
[/quote] Uh, no, it’s the exactly the opposite. That’s your argument… It’s not my proposition that the LF should be excluded from the game because Nisha’s OFEOY gives her a 1600% crit bonus. that’s your argument, and that argument has been countered. If you want to continue with that argument, the only thing left for you to do is demonstrate that a significant difference in DPS/enemy health ratios between Nisha and the BL2 classes

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:62, topic:1217345”]
I’m not going to spend time debating if it really is overpowered or not because it’s just speculations and perceptions.
[/quote] You’re the guy who is speculating that it’s OP. I would say if you think that the LF would make Nisha Op because numbers, then you need to demonstrate that with some numbers. If you don’t have those, then why would you think that in the first place?

Good talk. I’m out. Thanks to everyone for the comments.

#65

Yes. I’ve already beaten everything in the game. Got the Holodome achievement for not entering FFYL in UVHM. Beaten EOS/thing with every character in UVHM. Invicible sentinal knocked over in UVHM.
So yeah, a new toy is always cool.

Plenty of OP weapons already. One more really isn’t going to make much of a difference.
TBH though before the game was released everyone said how ‘Broken’ the Harold/Fragnum was going to be … yeah, it really isn’t. Probably end up the same situation if they introduce the Ladyfist.

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#67

Alright, you’re just repeating the same thing over and over, not really listening to what i’m saying, quoting me out of context and purposefully ignoring my point.
This is getting frustrating,

As for “broken things shouldn’t be added in the game” I don’t think anyone has made any kind of argument as to why gearbox should go against everything they have done so far. They have very obviously made steps to ensure balance in their game whenever possible, likely because they think this is something important. That you (or I, or anyone else) agree with that concern is irrelevant.

As for “I think the LF is one of those broken thing” It’s just my opinion. That is the impression that I have based on play experience. I don’t have any kind of maths to back it up because the thing isn’t in the game so it’s pretty hard to test. And comparisons to BL2 are totally moot: this is not the same game. Everything that was deemed very strong or too strong in BL2 has been scaled back or removed to keep power level in check, so it’s pretty clear that the power level of TPS is not the same as BL2’s:

No Bee
No Infinity
The Harold has been nerfed badly
No Sandhawk
The CC has been nerfed
No Pimp
No Lyuda
No Norfleet
Almost no guns with unlisted pellets
Grog was brought back…then neutered
Even the debuff element is much more tame
Only 3 Moxxi guns instead of a dozen and none heal more than 2-3%
No sheriff’s badge
No Bones of the ancient equivalent

…and you guys think they should bring back a gun that clearly belongs on that list …unmodified ?

…and you’re not concerned one bit that it might be too strong for this (clearly different) game while everything else in its tier was either not included or modified to make it less powerful ?

And you also want me to prove with maths that it belongs on that list above ? Just look at the BL2 section of the forum: the Lady fist is literally on EVERY.SINGLE. Top gear.

About your point that characters in BL2 can reach the equivalent of the fist’s bonus through skills and gear choice, I totally agree… But that only proves that the fist is balanced…in BL2!

That in no way proves that it would also be balanced in TPS.
In fact: The fact that none of the gear required to equal that power level made it to TPS either is solid evidence of the opposite.

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#68

@Chuck80 has solid points, as usual. You never disappoint… :slightly_smiling: I for one could care less if it’s brought back or not.

I’ll go out on a limb here and just say it is pretty bad on Nisha. The only thing that weapon is good for on Nisha would be crit swapping. Showdown and the recoil makes it unusable on her imo. :weary:

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#69

Are you talking about the lady fist ?

Because as far as recoil and showdown is concerned, it should behave like a normal Hyperion pistol.

If you can handle the Taser, you can handle the LF.

Are you referring to the bug where your screen will bob all around the place ? I think it can be fixed by entering showdown while not running. I don’t remember the specifics but there is a thread on that somewhere on the forum.

#70

That is exactly what I’m talking about. :blush:

Edit: And I’ll further my point. There better weapons already available in the game. It’s kinda meh imo. Some one graced me with it upon the release of the Claptastic Voyage DLC. after playing with it I banked it. And that is where it stays. I didn’t care for it. I prefer legitimate gear anyways. I was curious(I know @Chuck80 you laughing at this remark, as I teased you about it earlier) I didn’t care for it.

#71

I’m having trouble linking things on my phone so I just pinged you in the thread instead :slight_smile:

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#72

Well I never tried it.
My concern comes from prior experience with it and what I can speculate about it.

But DPS numbers show that, for example, it has more than twice the DPS of a perfect parts Maggie with crit luneshine. There may be other guns in the game that would produce higher numbers than a Maggie of course… But more than twice ?

And testing by …someone with means… Show that the time it needs to kill Eclipse by just activating Tombstone and holding the trigger with a non elemental version can only be matched by something like spamming all your RL ammo from 2 element matching perfect Badabooms, being real lucky on your glitches with a Quad or something similar.

In short, it accomplishes casually what only really tight combos can do in ideal scenarios.

Like I said, I might be wrong and the LF might be totally fine. I guess we’ll only find out if Gearbox decides to release it.

#73

I can probably accommodate that request. the one i have is cryo. so it is not NE, not sure if that will sway you from doing the test?

But there are exploits within TPS that outperform it imo. Things like using a the yellow loop glitch and merging that into “lets say a luck cannon”. Burst firing and no recoil on the luck cannon(espcially in Nisha’s hands) is ridiculous DPS. it’s an exploit that cannot be fixed(at least I think it can’t) and hasn’t IIRC. I haven’t tried that exploit in a while. It’s total overkill. But my point is there are exploits, glitches, gear that is available already that will outperform the LF, imo.

#74

Well, that’s my point: if you have to rely on glitches or bugs to match that gun, then it’s too strong :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, a Cryo LF would suck against Eclipse: shield resist Cryo and he can’t be frozen anyway.

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#75

agreed.

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#76

Not the same.
Fun to me is taking something within the game, and being able to do things with it that are outside the confines of what the game dictates they should do. To me, getting that 20 fire rate gun would be fun because there are no other 20 FR guns. Its already at the FR breakpoint of consoles, so I wouldn’t have to take any fire rate boosts. I could entirely ignore that stat and still have high DPS, which opens up other options.

When I double the fire rate on y Fragnum or LD, that’s fun for me because the game gives them low fire rates. A shield that never stops recharging is fun to me because I can constantly take damage without fear. That gun you mentioned would just be another one of those tools that allow me to play a bit outside the box of what the game dictates via stats on gear.

As I said, its not about not wanting challenge. When gear allows me to play the way I want, I find it fun. And a 20 FR gun with Lifesteal would do just that.

Because its in the code and I don’t expect GB to make new guns. If we could get those I’d drop this in a heartbeat, but since we more than likely won’t get new content, I’d just like whatever’s in the code to come to light. I want to see the entirety of the matrix…

Not to minimize your argument, nor do I want to sound like I’m hating on the game, but TPS has been dead for several months now. If there was any time to break the balance of this game with OP gear, it would be now when only the hardcore nuts like us are still riding in this ship :grin:.

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#77

actually, the hard cap on last gen consoles is 30 and 60 for current gen.

Anyway, I meant that rhetorically: I gave that gun ridiculously overpowered stats just to see the limits of the argument.

#78

Last time I checked, there were six playable classes in TPS.
Will the LF break Nisha? Sure, But who cares? It is an argument I do not support.
Why should people who do not use Nisha but use the other FIVE classes not be able to play with the LF?
Nisha is pretty broken already. Having the LF is just icing to the cake.
I do not use Nisha because she’s so OP it’s boring. Why should I care that the LF is going to break her? I don’t use her. I do use the other FIVE classes, however.

Could it also break the game with the others?
Well, maybe, since it is indeed very powerful.
However, I seem to remember being able to one-shot the Bosun and others with several characters and weapons.

Will it ruin online games? Not any more than what can already ruin them now.

Is it too OP for you? Well, don’t use it then. That’s what I do with Nisha. Problem solved.

There are OP weapons in the game already. LF will not destroy the world. Let’s see it.
Also, who cares? Fewer and fewer people play TPS anymore.
If it is that big a deal, nerf it.

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#79

Gearbox

Because you personally don’t play that character, you don’t care that she would be broken ?

That’s a very selfish way of seeing it.
I’m glade you’re not the one calling the shots

Also, the “The game is already unbalanced anyway” argument is very similar to “Yeah, I smoke 3 packs a day but we’re all gonna die of something, right?”

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#80

I feel like things may be getting slightly tense here.

image

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