So who wants the Lady Fist?

Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel BL:TPS Discussion
#64

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
The whole comparison with BL2 thing doesn’t work: not the same game, not the same scaling and not the same power level.
[/quote] Well, ya gotta use some math, man. I don’t know the values, but if you share them with me, I’ll do the math for you, if you like

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
BL2 UVHM has health x4 and health regenTPS UVHM has health x1.5 no regen
[/quote] Health regen probably isn’t too important in this particular case. I’d guess with a build that boosts crit bonus involving the lady fist, that the health regen is a nominal factor.

More importantly, I think you might want to consider that the slag X3 mitigates BL2 enemies stiffer health

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
Any argument involving a comparison between the BL2 lady fist and how it didn’t break the game there is nul and void.
[/quote] Really, Because the math doesn’t support your conclusion?

You’re saying that Nisha will be OP because of a 1600% crit damage. I countered that BL2 classes can generate that simply using a relic/COM withoiut even considering crit boosts for any other skill or the use of the bee.

That’s not a comparison between absolute values, it’s a bonus percentage.To put this another way: the LF in TPS will likely have a card damage that differs from the card damage of a level 70 BL2 LF, just as a crit prefix sniper will have a different base damage as it’s same -level counterpart in BL2. But the crit bonus will not be reduced, because that doesn’t matter to the difference in leveling between the games.

You ignore that the 1600% crit bonus can not only be easily duplicated by the BL2 classes, but also surpassed by some. So, the 1600% crit bonus thing is a dead end , but you carried on. So, finally, I said to you, "OK, if you can demonstrate that somehow, Nisha’s DPS/enemy health ratio is significantly greater than the Bl2 classes’ DPS/enemy health ratio using the LF, then you will have demonstrated that Niisha’a OFEOY skill makes her OP. (And we’ll just ignore bore, money shot, etc).

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
I thought your point was that you didn’t care that it breaks the game… Not that you thought it wouldn’t do so.[/quote] That is my point. I’ve said it several times - that certain skills of various classes can make a certain gun, weapon type, or any gun at all OP, so why should the fact that Nisha’s action skill (meaning showdown, OFROY, tombstone) makes the Lf Op mean that the Lf can’t be in the game.

I didn’t even think anything about the specifics of the opposing argument, because the two arguments are in entirely different frames - one isn’t the opposite of the other. but then when you told me very specifically what your objection was, I immediately recognized that it wasn’t a good argument, because the BL2 classes can easily boost the LF crit bonus to 1600%…

And I thought, that i don’t even really need to argue a counter-argument to the proposition that the Lady fist need to be excluded, I can just point out that the original proposition is false. so, there no reason to not want it in the game

[quote=“Chuck80, post:60, topic:1217345”]
Considering that the bulk of your argument so far has been about how it’s just one character,
[/quote] Uh, no, it’s the exactly the opposite. That’s your argument… It’s not my proposition that the LF should be excluded from the game because Nisha’s OFEOY gives her a 1600% crit bonus. that’s your argument, and that argument has been countered. If you want to continue with that argument, the only thing left for you to do is demonstrate that a significant difference in DPS/enemy health ratios between Nisha and the BL2 classes

.[quote=“Chuck80, post:62, topic:1217345”]
I’m not going to spend time debating if it really is overpowered or not because it’s just speculations and perceptions.
[/quote] You’re the guy who is speculating that it’s OP. I would say if you think that the LF would make Nisha Op because numbers, then you need to demonstrate that with some numbers. If you don’t have those, then why would you think that in the first place?

Good talk. I’m out. Thanks to everyone for the comments.

#65

Yes. I’ve already beaten everything in the game. Got the Holodome achievement for not entering FFYL in UVHM. Beaten EOS/thing with every character in UVHM. Invicible sentinal knocked over in UVHM.
So yeah, a new toy is always cool.

Plenty of OP weapons already. One more really isn’t going to make much of a difference.
TBH though before the game was released everyone said how ‘Broken’ the Harold/Fragnum was going to be … yeah, it really isn’t. Probably end up the same situation if they introduce the Ladyfist.

1 Like
#67

Alright, you’re just repeating the same thing over and over, not really listening to what i’m saying, quoting me out of context and purposefully ignoring my point.
This is getting frustrating,

As for “broken things shouldn’t be added in the game” I don’t think anyone has made any kind of argument as to why gearbox should go against everything they have done so far. They have very obviously made steps to ensure balance in their game whenever possible, likely because they think this is something important. That you (or I, or anyone else) agree with that concern is irrelevant.

As for “I think the LF is one of those broken thing” It’s just my opinion. That is the impression that I have based on play experience. I don’t have any kind of maths to back it up because the thing isn’t in the game so it’s pretty hard to test. And comparisons to BL2 are totally moot: this is not the same game. Everything that was deemed very strong or too strong in BL2 has been scaled back or removed to keep power level in check, so it’s pretty clear that the power level of TPS is not the same as BL2’s:

No Bee
No Infinity
The Harold has been nerfed badly
No Sandhawk
The CC has been nerfed
No Pimp
No Lyuda
No Norfleet
Almost no guns with unlisted pellets
Grog was brought back…then neutered
Even the debuff element is much more tame
Only 3 Moxxi guns instead of a dozen and none heal more than 2-3%
No sheriff’s badge
No Bones of the ancient equivalent

…and you guys think they should bring back a gun that clearly belongs on that list …unmodified ?

…and you’re not concerned one bit that it might be too strong for this (clearly different) game while everything else in its tier was either not included or modified to make it less powerful ?

And you also want me to prove with maths that it belongs on that list above ? Just look at the BL2 section of the forum: the Lady fist is literally on EVERY.SINGLE. Top gear.

About your point that characters in BL2 can reach the equivalent of the fist’s bonus through skills and gear choice, I totally agree… But that only proves that the fist is balanced…in BL2!

That in no way proves that it would also be balanced in TPS.
In fact: The fact that none of the gear required to equal that power level made it to TPS either is solid evidence of the opposite.

2 Likes
#68

@Chuck80 has solid points, as usual. You never disappoint… :slightly_smiling: I for one could care less if it’s brought back or not.

I’ll go out on a limb here and just say it is pretty bad on Nisha. The only thing that weapon is good for on Nisha would be crit swapping. Showdown and the recoil makes it unusable on her imo. :weary:

1 Like
#69

Are you talking about the lady fist ?

Because as far as recoil and showdown is concerned, it should behave like a normal Hyperion pistol.

If you can handle the Taser, you can handle the LF.

Are you referring to the bug where your screen will bob all around the place ? I think it can be fixed by entering showdown while not running. I don’t remember the specifics but there is a thread on that somewhere on the forum.

#70

That is exactly what I’m talking about. :blush:

Edit: And I’ll further my point. There better weapons already available in the game. It’s kinda meh imo. Some one graced me with it upon the release of the Claptastic Voyage DLC. after playing with it I banked it. And that is where it stays. I didn’t care for it. I prefer legitimate gear anyways. I was curious(I know @Chuck80 you laughing at this remark, as I teased you about it earlier) I didn’t care for it.

#71

I’m having trouble linking things on my phone so I just pinged you in the thread instead :slight_smile:

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#72

Well I never tried it.
My concern comes from prior experience with it and what I can speculate about it.

But DPS numbers show that, for example, it has more than twice the DPS of a perfect parts Maggie with crit luneshine. There may be other guns in the game that would produce higher numbers than a Maggie of course… But more than twice ?

And testing by …someone with means… Show that the time it needs to kill Eclipse by just activating Tombstone and holding the trigger with a non elemental version can only be matched by something like spamming all your RL ammo from 2 element matching perfect Badabooms, being real lucky on your glitches with a Quad or something similar.

In short, it accomplishes casually what only really tight combos can do in ideal scenarios.

Like I said, I might be wrong and the LF might be totally fine. I guess we’ll only find out if Gearbox decides to release it.

#73

I can probably accommodate that request. the one i have is cryo. so it is not NE, not sure if that will sway you from doing the test?

But there are exploits within TPS that outperform it imo. Things like using a the yellow loop glitch and merging that into “lets say a luck cannon”. Burst firing and no recoil on the luck cannon(espcially in Nisha’s hands) is ridiculous DPS. it’s an exploit that cannot be fixed(at least I think it can’t) and hasn’t IIRC. I haven’t tried that exploit in a while. It’s total overkill. But my point is there are exploits, glitches, gear that is available already that will outperform the LF, imo.

#74

Well, that’s my point: if you have to rely on glitches or bugs to match that gun, then it’s too strong :stuck_out_tongue:

Also, a Cryo LF would suck against Eclipse: shield resist Cryo and he can’t be frozen anyway.

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#75

agreed.

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#76

Not the same.
Fun to me is taking something within the game, and being able to do things with it that are outside the confines of what the game dictates they should do. To me, getting that 20 fire rate gun would be fun because there are no other 20 FR guns. Its already at the FR breakpoint of consoles, so I wouldn’t have to take any fire rate boosts. I could entirely ignore that stat and still have high DPS, which opens up other options.

When I double the fire rate on y Fragnum or LD, that’s fun for me because the game gives them low fire rates. A shield that never stops recharging is fun to me because I can constantly take damage without fear. That gun you mentioned would just be another one of those tools that allow me to play a bit outside the box of what the game dictates via stats on gear.

As I said, its not about not wanting challenge. When gear allows me to play the way I want, I find it fun. And a 20 FR gun with Lifesteal would do just that.

Because its in the code and I don’t expect GB to make new guns. If we could get those I’d drop this in a heartbeat, but since we more than likely won’t get new content, I’d just like whatever’s in the code to come to light. I want to see the entirety of the matrix…

Not to minimize your argument, nor do I want to sound like I’m hating on the game, but TPS has been dead for several months now. If there was any time to break the balance of this game with OP gear, it would be now when only the hardcore nuts like us are still riding in this ship :grin:.

2 Likes
#77

actually, the hard cap on last gen consoles is 30 and 60 for current gen.

Anyway, I meant that rhetorically: I gave that gun ridiculously overpowered stats just to see the limits of the argument.

#78

Last time I checked, there were six playable classes in TPS.
Will the LF break Nisha? Sure, But who cares? It is an argument I do not support.
Why should people who do not use Nisha but use the other FIVE classes not be able to play with the LF?
Nisha is pretty broken already. Having the LF is just icing to the cake.
I do not use Nisha because she’s so OP it’s boring. Why should I care that the LF is going to break her? I don’t use her. I do use the other FIVE classes, however.

Could it also break the game with the others?
Well, maybe, since it is indeed very powerful.
However, I seem to remember being able to one-shot the Bosun and others with several characters and weapons.

Will it ruin online games? Not any more than what can already ruin them now.

Is it too OP for you? Well, don’t use it then. That’s what I do with Nisha. Problem solved.

There are OP weapons in the game already. LF will not destroy the world. Let’s see it.
Also, who cares? Fewer and fewer people play TPS anymore.
If it is that big a deal, nerf it.

1 Like
#79

Gearbox

Because you personally don’t play that character, you don’t care that she would be broken ?

That’s a very selfish way of seeing it.
I’m glade you’re not the one calling the shots

Also, the “The game is already unbalanced anyway” argument is very similar to “Yeah, I smoke 3 packs a day but we’re all gonna die of something, right?”

1 Like
#80

I feel like things may be getting slightly tense here.

image

5 Likes
#81

That cat is not tense. Also, I want him.

#82

Exactly. He is loose and relaxed as everyone here should be. :wink:

#83

image
This serves no purpose. I leave this for you all.
Please resume your arguments below in an orderly fashion.

#84

The point you’ve brought up repeatedly is that it would be a bad balancing on GB’s part to put the LF in the game because it would make the game too unbalanced for Nisha players, ruining any semblance of choice.

That’s not a point I’m willing to argue, because that comes from a min-maxing state of mind. There isn’t a guarantee that Nisha players will be so negatively affected by this that it completely ruins their experience. There was gear that viewed as mandatory in BL2 (Endgame Krieg consisted of 2 shields, and you know the whole Sal and the grog argument), but that didn’t stop anyone from still enjoying those characters.

Still, I recognize that you do have an extremely valid point there. However, my counter would be how the alternative is any better from a design and balancing standpoint. To not include a piece of gear because 1 character out of 6 has 2 skills that break the weapon is a pretty bad balance choice in its own right. You may think its selfish for non-Nisha players to want the LF regardless of how it affects Nisha’s balance, but then again, why should the other five be screwed out of a great weapon because OFEOY and TS are too good?

The LF would totally break the game with Nisha, I don’t really doubt that. But when the LC can also clear a room in seconds, how much does it really matter? Nisha has so many powerful options that even if the LF was included, it would just be another rung on the ladder. It may become the premier boss killer over Jakobs shotties, but for mobbing Nisha nearly one shots almost everything. And being an automatic and a Hyperion, even with the crit bonus you’ll still waste a few bullets, and you know better than anyone that a few missed bullets add up.

So even in the worst case scenario, Nisha has a weapon that destroys the LC (like the LC does for non-glitch pistols already). At best, she has an option that becomes BiS for raiding and bosses with adds. With how much damage she puts out already, the LF doesn’t offer her anything she can’t get in spades from another source.

So is it really that bad? Would it break the balance that much? I’d argue, if anything, the concern that will invalidate all other gear would be a better case to make for Wilhelm or Athena than Nisha, since their pistols options are a bit lacking.