How does her action skill make the Lady fist broken ?
Really, if anything makes her broken with the LF, it’s OFEOY, not the action skill.
We’ve been over the concerns about her aimbot countless times: an aimbot doesn’t make her more powerful: it makes her EASY to play. If you’re already good and can aim yourself, her action skill brings basically nothing. It’s a noob crutch, it doesn’t make her any more powerful.
If anything is broken and should be fixed on Nisha, it’s Tombstone… and it’s not even part of the Lady Fist problem.
The problem is that with its flatter difficulty, 1600% crit bonus is just way too much.
Showdown has NOTHING to do with it.
Sure, but if the issue is replayability, and it is here, it’s the loot that has made these games so incredibly replayable. I think you know that.
Your opinion, and of course I disagree, is that the Lady Fist will ruin the game in Nisha’s hands.If the LF is put into the game, why would you use it with Nisha? Or is that if GBX says it’ won’t ruin the game, then your opinion will change?
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]A GAME DEVELOPER WHO OBVIOUSLY WANTS AS MUCH BALANCE AS POSSIBLE.[/quote] Well, balance is subjective. You just said that you don’t play past OP2. There are people who felt that UVHM was too hard. I think that Vorac is too hard. These things show that GBX, in these cases, sought a balance that was on the hard side for some people. For the player who’s not into putting hundreds or thousands of hours into these games, UVHM and the OP levels would seem unbalanced. Would the Lady Fist make TPS too easy? Did it make BL2 too easy?
You missed the point, intentionally, I think, which was: if someone has played through the game three times, they’ve already completed the game without the Lady Fist, so how could it ruin the game for them if they’ve already completed it several times.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]
Maybe because the game still has a decent level of challenge to offer ?
[/quote] If you want more challenge, use all whites, or no shield, or don’t spend any skill points in your tree, or use no gear at all and melee-only.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]
Maybe because thinking up new strategies is an interesting prospect ?
[/quote] There’s only one strategy: kill them before they kill you. Oh, wow, I just realized the theme of these games is evil as f*ck.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]
How would including an obviously superior strategy that trivializes gameplay make this experience better ?[/quote] The Lady Fist was in BL2 along with the Bee. Did it trivialize the gameplay? And instead of thinking “better”, try thinking “fun”.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]
And yeah, I think the Pimp AS IT IS NOW shouldn’t be in the game.
[/quote] Yes, I know, along with other gear you would remove from the game or nerf. Do you notice a pattern here?
[quote=“Chuck80, post:43, topic:1217345”]How does it being in the game an overall improvement to the game’s quality ?[/quote]. How? How does any gun or piece of gear already in the game add to the overall improvement of the game quality?
Without being rhetorical: it’s a badass pistol that has a special history in the franchise. It, was made by TK Baha It’, or technically, it’s ancestor, was the first red text gun you got on Pandora. It killed the first boss you met on Pandora. It’s one of the great guns of BL2… In NVHM, it becomes the best gun you have at that point in the game, and you likely kill the Warrior with it, and possibly Jack - if you didn’t, you should have, for TK.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:44, topic:1217345”]
How does her action skill make the Lady fist broken ?
[/quote] It doesn’t.
[quote=“Chuck80, post:44, topic:1217345”]
Showdown has NOTHING to do with it.
[/quote] OK, I see - but when you used the term “win button” - (and from the video mentioned in the other thread where the guy has the LF in the game and activates Showdown, meaning, he literally only pushed one button) - I assumed you meant Showdown ( and obv.One for Each of You, and Tombstone).
[quote=“Chuck80, post:44, topic:1217345”]
The problem is that with its flatter difficulty, 1600% crit bonus is just way too much.
[/quote] Yes, I understand where you’re coming from. 1600 is a big number. But consider that, in BL2, you have the Sheriff’s Badge (50% fire rate boost) used with class mods that, combined, increase the crit bonus to around that (in terms of DPS), and that’s without accounting for skills that boost crit bonus or fire rate. Now throw on a Bee. That’s a lot of DPS, and it isn’t game breaking.
I really don’t see any problem with the Lady Fist, as is, in TPC, even if Nisha is using it. If you could show me some math that demonstrates that Nisha’s DPS is significantly greater than the DPS of BL2 classes in relation to the shield/health values of a few comparable enemies , then you have something.
But just looking at a single number, in this case 1600, and assuming that it’s game-breaking for that gun isn’t convincing, given that the same gun can generate about the same figure with relic/COM combos, and that’s before adding crit and FR boosts from skills, and then, of course, you throw on the Bee. So, you can understand my skepticism here, right?
First off, let’s keep this professional. A few of your respnonces in the last section were pretty needlessly aggressive. I’m not attacking you, I’m not saying yoiu started it or anything like that. What I’m saying is, that kind of stuff only leads to bad things, so lets ALL calm down and have a civil discussion.
Second, I think you’re missing the point of the BL2 analogy with the lady fist. It has nothing to do with the Lady fist being “OP” with the Bee, or the Sheriff’s badge, or whatever, and, it has nothing to do with a direct DPS conparison between games (that’s a silly proposision, they are different games with different level scalings etc.). It has everything to do with the relative power the Vault hunters in each game have; The vault hunters in BL2 had reletively little inate power, That was made up for them in the power that the weapons they had available to them, for example the 800% crit bonus of the lady fist. The vault hunters of TPS have much more innate power. So if they get a weapon that was designed for BL2 powered vault hunters…they end up with a whole lot of power.
What chuck and I are proposing here, is not really a “nerf”, we are just proposing that the Ladyfist be brought into line with the other weapons in TPS.
Third, a few times in this thread, you have expressed this concept
(paraphrased) If you don’t like it (refering to the Lady Fist, or Nisha, or anything else) then don’t use it.
This is not choice, this is the Illusion of choice. I think we can all agree that most people, when they play games like Borderlands, want to use the most powerful setup available to them. So by including an overpowered weapon, you actually decrease weapon diversity in the game.
As an example, concider the Pimp. There are tons of very powerful snipers in BL2: Sloth, the longbow, the buffalo, Sniders etc., but the Pimp does (concervatively) twice as much damage as any of them on a per-shot basis (the most important one, concidering we’re talking about snipers). Consequently, whenever you hear about someone using a sniper, it is almost always the Pimp.
I’ve said my piece as clearly as humanly possible.
If some people either don’t understand or disagree, that’s pretty much where it ends.
On another note: @khimerakiller and I have been crunching the numbers on both the Fibber and Lady fist. The Fist is not nearly as overpowered as I initially thought (though it’s still too powerful to be included as is IMO… …just not at the same degree)
The Fibber however is much better than I thought and it comes with it’s own set of quirks that make it pretty interesting.
Question for the crowd that wants any gun in the game no matter the impacts: The Fibber with the crit barrel has 700% crit bonus… But unlike the lady fist, it’s balanced by slow arcing pellets (meaning it can’t be used as easily by Nisha and can’t hit crits on everything)
Would you be satisfied with just the Fibber ?
Or do you really need that extra 100% ?
True I’m just saying no better than any of her other finishers.
It has 29 in the mag if you want the actual #. I was just trying to say AA isn’t pertinent for the LF like say a Quad or AZ.
I brought up these purely to show that the LF will not make the other characters an more powerful than they already are. It will undoubtedly be their best pistol (although I think I could do better with Jack).
It is, the cryo status effect values base damage and explosive damage more than crit. The same reason the LF on Zero isn’t his best option, because he values base damage since he supplies the crit damage already.
I 100% agree. It will be the #1 pistol just like in BL2, except for a couple exceptions like Zero and the Lyuda.
Yes, it sits king with the Harold. But you know without the Bee its IMO balanced.
No I was referring to TPS. Don’t get me wrong the Torrent, Fatale, and to an extent Fast Talker are great guns. But they lack that umph in a game where characters can use more powerful guns for longer. Not a single character wants to kill a raid with a SMG unlike BL2’s characters.
They are top tier with and without the Bee, but they only break the game with it.
I’m fine with this happening or it not coming in the game at all. I’m just saying it won’t break the game with it’s current 800%.
TL;DR: The Lady Fist won’t break the game because everyone is so powerful with other stuff. With the exception of crit transfer on Nisha.
And if what you said on Discord is because of me I am sorry.
Just to be sure I understand your point and where we stand on this:
If there was in the files a gun called the “InfinigrogBee” that didn’t use ammo, had a fire rate of 20, healed you for all damage you did and did 1 billion damage per bullet… Would you also want it added to the game ?
If so, why ? And why are you not cheating at the game ? And…why are you playing in the first place when you could skip the middleman by simply screaming “I win!” From a rooftop.
I have a suggestion! How about we not draw a line at all? How about whats good for you, may not be good for me. But what may be good for me, may not be good for you. So, lets not draw lines in the sand so-to-speak. As the Beatles would say, “let it be”
I just see a tone here and I’m trying to change it. It’s all good people. No judging here!
I think the problem here is that you equate a want of super powerful gear to mean lack of a want of challenge. At least personally, I don’t find that to be true. I’d want that gun because sounds fun.
A 20 fire rate? I haven’t had that since BL1! Never dying? For a badass VH like myself, death shouldn’t exist! I have New U stations for chrissake! And cannonically speaking we never die, so sure, gimme the immortalalities!
I’ll take anything they put in the game and decide for myself whether or not I want to use it. If it ruins my experience, I’ll stop using it even if its objectively better than anything else I can use because my objective is to have fun, not let the game dictate what guns I use to reach a DPS that I won’t even need most of the time.
As to why I wouldn’t cheat, because you can’t on consoles, and I fail to see how one can cheat in a PVE game, but that’s another topic entirely.
Simply put, I see no line to be drawn. Put anything you can in the game. If I don’t like it, I won’t use it. This isn’t Diablo where 1 piece of gear can be so far ahead of the others that you can’t have a viable build without it. We have plenty of choices, and more are better.
To me, measuring a build meant to stack ridiculous amounts of damage but isn’t sustainable through DPS seems weird. Tediore Jack, while powerful, isn’t sustainable for long stretches. You can’t mob with it, and its really best for burning down singular targets quickly. I always figured that builds like that were best measured with a damage per attack model, since 90% of the enemies in this game would be 1 shot by a tediore reload making its DPS overkill in most situations.
It probably doesn’t make much sense, but I look at almost everything through a mobbing perspective, so once things start one shotting badass enemies, it leaves the realm of needing DPS calcs for me, everything dies in 1 second anyway .
I’d be OK with it. Guns is guns after all. Heck, I haven’t used the shotgun fibber since my first playthrough of BL2, so I’d love one for Aurelia and Jack. I could have a pistol shotgun set with the the Maggie, Party Popper, and Fibber. Sounds like a party![quote=“Wingsday, post:46, topic:1217345”]
This is not choice, this is the Illusion of choice. I think we can all agree that most people, when they play games like Borderlands, want to use the most powerful setup available to them. So by including an overpowered weapon, you actually decrease weapon diversity in the game.
[/quote] I’ll never understand that. Its a great way to miss out on a lot of fun things. More is more, thinking that because something is better that you have to use it at the expense of everything else isn’t less choice, its a conscious choice to not use something. Its not my place to criticize how people enjoy their game, I just don’t see why a self-imposed restriction translates into an objective lack of choice.
But whatevs. Whatever floats our respective boats.
If I haven’t made it clear by now, I’m cool with whatever GB decides as long as we get new stuff. They could name the LF Kim Kardashian and make it always spawn with a tediore scope that zoomed in on enemies privates so long as we get a new toy.
That’s a perfectly reasonable viewpoint for your private games
But you have to be aware that there is a reason why Gearbox (and all other game developers) always try to maintain game balance. They don’t do that to piss people off or because they have a terrible case of OCD. They do it because games that are balanced sell better, are played longer and are enjoyed more by players.
It’s not my opinion, it’s just fact.
Ergo, introducing items in a game that skew that balance is a bad idea.
That’s my point.
(Whether or not the Lady fist actually is too powerful is another debate)
I think it would be fun too… for about 5 minutes. Either that or you and I have a very different definition of what constitutes fun. for the same feeling you can always take your level 70 character and go mob in normal mode…
I understand that you want more guns, I want more guns too!
But we could ask for literally ANYTHING…
Why those 2 ? Because they are in the code ?
Wouldn’t you want guns that you did not already use in another game ?
The argument here is that you oppose the Lady Fist because it would break with Nisha, specifically citing the 1600 crit bonus through One for Each of You as the problem. You also said this:
I pointed out that the BL2 classes can match that (in terms of DPS) with a relic/MOD combo, and that this doesn’t include any further boosts to crit bonus through skills or the Bee. Yet, the Lady Fist is in that game. So, the developer feels that the LF is balanced in BL2 as is.
There are certainly certain pieces of gear which can be OP in the hands of a certain character. There is this in BL2, yet, those guns remain in the game. And if it is, as you’ve implied, that GBX is the arbiter of balance in their games (and of course they are), then two things are made clear:
The Lady Fist does not ruin BL2. It has not been nerfed, on the contrary, it has been buffed to 800% crit damage. And this is in a game that includes the Bee. GBX clearly does not view the Lady Fist as unbalanced in BL2.
Guns which can be OP in the hands of certain characters are not removed from the game for this reason (after all, with some skills, almost every gun is OP.)
Regarding number 2, that Nisha may or may not be OP with the Lady Fist does not necessarily mean that the gun ruins the game, and it should be removed or nerfed for that reason alone.
But does OFEOY with the Lf really ruin the game? Your argument is that it’s 1600 crit bonus. My counter-argument is that BL2 classes can get about the same crit bonus (in terms of DPS) with the LF by using relic/mod combination, and that crit bonus does not include any skills that boost crit or fire rate, or the use of the Bee.
So, the thing you can do here, the only thing really, is to show the math. It’s your argument here, and you need to show the math. If you can’t demonstrate that OFEOY generates significantly greater DPS in relation to enemy health (of various and comparable enemies), than BL2 classes can generate relative to enemy health at the cap. (remember to account for slagged enemies in BL2 for that X3.)
At least you would have the point that at least one character would be OP with this gun. As it stands, there’s no evidence that 1600% crit damage OFEOY would ruin the game, it didn’t ruin BL2, and that’s not even counting the Bee.
So, you can show that math here in this thread, and we can go from there, otherwise, we’re done here. Because you’ve defined your argument against the LF, and it’s about math.
Yes I would like new guns, but I think the only reason we are getting these is because they are already in the code. You probably already know this, but I just thought I’d state it.
Tangent: Why are there no DLC weapons from BL2 in TPS?
And they added the ‘Pumpkin Chunker’ aka ‘Jack O Cannon’ and the Big Thumppr, why non any of the other cut weapons like the Lure, Doom, Bandit Snipers, Clusterfun, Creeper, Weasel, ect…?
The whole comparison with BL2 thing doesn’t work: not the same game, not the same scaling and not the same power level.
BL2 UVHM has health x4 and health regen
TPS UVHM has health x1.5 no regen
They are simply different games.
The Bee is in BL2… Strangely enough it’s not in TPS.
Unlisted pellets were everywhere in BL2… Almost inexistent in TPS.
Hell, even the lowly Infinity was deemed too powerful to be brought back and we got a nerfed version instead.
Think there’s a reason for that ?
Any argument involving a comparison between the BL2 lady fist and how it didn’t break the game there is nul and void.
Also, about the part where I have to prove that it generates significantly more DPS … I don’t get it.
I thought your point was that you didn’t care that it breaks the game… Not that you thought it wouldn’t do so.
So which is it ?
If it can be demonstrated that it would break the game would you change position? Of course not.
Considering that the bulk of your argument so far has been about how it’s just one character, it’s a matter of choice, Nisha is already broken anyway… All points to a position where you acknowledge that it’s unusually strong but you don’t think it’s a problem.
Yea the scaling is different between the 2 games. But with slag in uvhm in bl2 it makes the two games compareable. At op 0 in bl2 and level 70 in the tps. It would feel ALMOST the same using the lady fist normally in the tps compared to using it against slag enemies in bl2 at op 0. It doesnt break bl2 and i dont think it would break tps. But with that being said i do agree that it would be ridiculous with nisha and would make the game easy. But there are already multiple guns with her that make the game way to easy. So it doesnt really matter if they add it or not in my opinion.
There’s 2 different questions here:
1: would the lady fist break the game/ be too strong ?
2: If so, should it still be added to the game?
My answer to 2 is no. And not just because I personally dislike the idea… It’s just because it makes sense to avoid things that break the game. Gearbox has done so numerous times and I’m confident that they share my opinion that overpowered gear is to be avoided when possible.
My answer to question 1 is more like “I think so”
With no actual testing, I can only speculate.
If I’m wrong, I have no issue whatsoever about including the fist in the game. I’ll even be happy to have more options.
I’m not going to spend time debating if it really is overpowered or not because it’s just speculations and perceptions. And no I’m not gonna try and post DPS numbers relating to enemy health or anything of the sort to try and “convince” anyone that my hunch is good. That part does interests me but not for debate purpose.
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Handsome_Dad
(Wh-?! A mask?! This is tooootally my face! I... uh... )
#63
If I’ve gone solo through OP8 as Maya and Axton, and have solo kills on multiple OP8 raid bosses with the Bee, couldn’t it be argued that my playstyle might make sense? I submit that there are two metrics by which we can rate ‘sensibility’ in a video game: fun and success. I’m having fun and winning. I’m a learner, so I am open to suggestions relating to how it may not make sense to win or have fun in the manner in which I do.
As for the Lady Fist:
I’m indifferent.
I don’t see believe that it actually creates new problems, since there are already people abusing the game with mods and editors. People who are already watching out for elements they disagree with will continue to exclude those elements. People who enjoy the other elements will still happily use them. That’s an informed prediction, based on current state.
How about we not draw a line at all? How about whats good for you, may not be good for me. But what may be good for me, may not be good for you. So, lets not draw lines in the sand so-to-speak. As the Beatles would say, “let it be”
But curiosity killed the cat. LOL Just saying…
.
I’ll never understand that. Its a great way to miss out on a lot of fun things. More is more, thinking that because something is better that you have to use it at the expense of everything else isn’t less choice, its a conscious choice to not use something. Its not my place to criticize how people enjoy their game, I just don’t see why a self-imposed restriction translates into an objective lack of choice.