#49

I know we hashed this out earlier, but skill is not the same thing as knowledge. We have numerous examples in the sports world of people who can only play on an amateur level themselves, but coach professional players. And again, the end result of a build is what matters, not the way you get there.

I don’t like bringing this up because I certainly haven’t experienced it myself, but any number of physical or mental disabilities (and not all people experience the same changes at the same rate as they age) can detract from someone’s aim. And that is fine, because they can clear just as quickly or (if the current world records for BL3 are to be believed) faster than those who can. Clear speed is the determinant of game knowledge, and that doesn’t care about good aim at all for most of the cast.

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#50

But a coach is there to help guide you. Their knowledge, no matter how good, doesn’t translate directly into the sport they coach. It goes through the players. I go back to Tom Brady. He had nothing but skill and some knowledge… But now, after more than two decades as a pro, he has surpassed most, if not all coaches in both skill and knowledge. So, having both is definitely better. But, his skill helped him, along with coaching, to become better. Without his skill, his knowledge doesn’t exist. I mean, that’s if we want to get philosophical about it all and point out that one can not exist without the other. As I think about it more, of course they are two different things, but knowledge is increased by skill. And skill by knowledge. A coach, who does not have the skill of their players, can only ever be as good as their players. A player with both skill and knowledge will always be better because of the skill they have. Of course, there are exceptions. But we’re not talking about that. The collective argument is kinda pointless, to be honest. I think my initial thought was from my perspective only. And that is that my skill increases my knowledge of actual gameplay with my specific character and my specific build. But, I can say with confidence, that there are few, perhaps 1 or 2, who would have more skill and knowledge about my personal Amara build. And I would say it’s hard to find, even amongst the BL3 streamers, many with more hours played, especially with one VH.

I’m sure the world records are ridiculously stupid fast, but the thing there is using unbalanced, or overpowered (however you choose to describe it) VH’s. Like Moze can basically just point and click delete enemies, and with the right build, large amounts of enemies at once. So all you end up having to do is memorize spawn points, know the map like the back of your hand, and hope the game doesn’t throw any run-slowing glitches at you. That leaves you with only having to have a decent keyboard/mouse setup to really distance yourself from any competition. Then, your PC comes into play. The better system you have, the more likely you’ll get smooth gameplay through the entire run. Your monitor and it’s refresh rate will also factor in at that point. It’s not small feet to accomplish that, but when aim is taken out of a game that involves billions and billions of guns, I think there is a loss of anything to be really excited about in that situation. Like if you literally don’t have to see everything on the map, even, lets say, a few screens behind you, then that just is stupid. That’s one reason Amara is my favorite VH. She’s balanced and not so OP it makes killing nonsensical. And her phase grasp is just powerful enough that the experience and excitement of the game isn’t lost. Because one-shotting raid bosses and deleting enemies, basically just by looking at them, looses its luster rather quickly.

#51

I’m curious what you would consider overpowered or unbalanced. Would you consider the Lightspeed grenade, Frozen Heart Shield, Moze’s terror nova anointment, or body and mind to be either of those things? Because all of those are the lynchpin of WR clearing builds.

Do things become world record builds because they are unbalanced and overpowered, or are they overpowered and unbalanced because they are used in WRs? I would hazard that there are just a lot more things in the game that are great than people give credit to.

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#52

I think I talked about that earlier. If I take all the exact same gear that I use on Amara and apply it to Moze, with the only differences being skill trees, and do the same runs, I don’t have to do anything with Moze to reach her max dps with a plasma coil (to be clear here, I mean max dps to the point of point and click and the enemy disappears in an instant). With Amara, I have to maintain stacks and crit hits to get the most out of my dps, and I also have to really pay attention to my shield. I currently use a Super Soldier and get increased fire rate when the shield is up. On Moze, I don’t have to worry about that. It’s just point and click and most enemies disappear faster than they appeared. That’s been my experience when I switch to my Moze character file.

As far as your second point/question… I’m not saying that they aren’t cool or anything. Those records are most likely legit (I’ve never even looked, so I’m only guessing). But they are just using what’s given in the game. Same as in BL2. But that doesn’t mean the records cause the builds to be overpowered or unbalanced. How could it be that way at all? The records wouldn’t be there without the game. It is certain interactions with certain VH’s that is overpowered or unbalanced. We all know this. And it was really a result of Gearbox trying to appease the fanbase. I’ve been here through the whole journey of BL3, just as you have. So we know where the game stands with regard to both balance and the overpowered interactions of the VH’s. That is, unless, they’ve since fixed any OP issues with Zane and Moze since the last patch…? I honestly don’t know since I main Amara and have been just doing speed runs with her all the time.

#53

At the end of the day, the dps output in BL3 is at a point where skill (aiming, movement, etc.) are irrelevant. The only thing you need to do when doing speed runs is memorize maps and spawn points. Then time the spawn points to your movement through the maps. Practice a couple thousand times, record everyone of your runs, then post the fastest. It becomes more technical and less organic. Certainly a test of reactionary skills and tracking capabilities with your eyes. Hand movement is done subconscious at that point. Your fingers on the keys and mouse disappear from your mind. It’s almost like you’re the VH. Controlling the movements, not with your hands, but with your mind. The feeling is pretty awesome and enhanced when your high. At least, that’s how I feel when I know I’m doing my fastest speedrun of TMT.

Edit: Probably shouldn’t smoke and post…lol

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#54

Right. That is knowledge.

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement about what constitutes knowledge in this game. To me, knowledge is knowing about the inner workings of the game: how the damage formulas work, which anoints don’t work like they say they do, which skills are broken, the map spawns, etc…all the stuff that you can do on a spreadsheet. It seems like you include the mechanical skill of actually shooting enemies and the basic FPS skills you need to play the game. To me, they are completely separate, a person who knows the math of the game but can’t aim for ■■■■ can just make a stinger shield hit damage cap. Someone with godly aim who uses bad anoints or skill builds is going to struggle much more.

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#55

You can have both, though, right? All I know is that BL3 has ruled most of my free time these past two years, and I’ve enjoyed it all.

#56

You most certainly can have both, but knowing the math is going to get you further than the shooting skills alone. A thread like this wouldn’t exist otherwise.

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#57

I think we can both agree that skill is technically part of knowledge. As far as knowing the math… I don’t agree. While I understand the math and have looked at it, I never really referenced it when putting together my build. I mean, the math would be a quicker way as long as you already had the numbers, but trial and error work just as well. :man_shrugging:

#58

Builds aside, the main point of this was that one mayhem 10 lvl 72 gun compared to another have vast differences in value for your time. Or fun factor. Or a combination of both.
I don’t use anything, I don’t even look at anything, that deals less than 10k dmg on the card.

#59

It’s a rule of thumb, and might even be useful - but it ignores lots of other stuff like rate of fire, elemental effects, red text effects etc. Need to see what my favorite guns come out as. :slight_smile:

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#60

I just use my incendiary based Shredifier with incendiary based anointment on my Moze and go Brrr.

If I want a change then I just use my incendiary based Ion cannon with incendiary based anointment and go boom

For me 99.999% of weapons are either a downgrade or useless :rofl: Why ? because third viable build of moze doesn’t even use weapons but just the anoinment to buff the action skill . :rofl: :rofl:

#61

Yeah I typically ignore elements unless its cryo/rad, least on Zane. I think what character you play plays a role in that sense, as Zane doesn’t really scream any elements at me other than cryo I do believe, so that rule for me works well on him

#62

The “skill” thing is why I quit playing Destiny 2…

That and their absolutely ridiculous bait and switch strategy combined with the inevitable “nerfs” in their god quest for “balance”…and the terribly long boring grinds to acquire “the next big thing” which gets nerfed two weeks later. That game had absolutely no respect for my time.

But mainly because “builds” meant…nothing…the fast twitch was, and still is, king.

I’m 67….I just don’t have the fast twitch anymore. Lol

But I still have a brain. And I love having “Choice”….

Which seems to be an absolute issue for people who want the game to be so much more difficult when it gives you the ability to slide the difficulty scale and rebuild with all different kinds of equipment.

Want the game harder? Make it harder.
Don’t like Moze or Zane, don’t play them or play them “differently”
Don’t like a particular piece of equipment or a weapon and think it’s way too over powered. Don’t use it.

I’m sorry but you guys have got to get off this idea but everyone needs to play the game the way you want it played.

It’s just not “sporting” my friends.

3 Likes
#63

I’m juuuust a bit skeptical:

Sorry, that gets you killed really fast at M 11 in True guardian take down on the crystals.

And if you think that the action skill is too much on iron bear, use Iron Cub….of change his weapon pods

You guys complaining about the game being too easy….

I think you are lacking in imagination and experimentation. You simply want a meta- and if that meta is too easy for you…you want the difficulty harder.

I personally think the game gives you all kinds of choice…but so many people don’t want to take it and this just floors me…

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#64

@thepersonwithaface

I use zero Cryo on Zane….just stick with the old fashioned element matching

Use AR’s….mostly Soulrenders

And just did True Guardian Takedown at M11 last night

I think we all get locked into an impression of what works simply from watching a few videos from the Talking Heads on YouTube

When there’s actually a ton of different ways to skin the cat in this game

I get locked into it as well….

“Moxsy does it so it must be good” sort of thing…

1 Like
#65

I don’t think anyone said that… And BL3 allows you to play however you want. It does cater to a larger base because of the options. But the difficulty is just not there anymore. So we create more difficulty. Which is also fine… But Moze and Zane are just ridiculous when it comes to dps and not even trying.

The nice thing about BL3 is the variety of builds. Fast twitch is still something you can take advantage of in the game if you play Jakob’s sniper on Amara. That’s a lot of fun.

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#66

I don’t even watch BL3 youtubers or streamers, I just see big numbers and use em!
And soul render is really fun lol

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#67

I can’t remember the last time I used my Hellwalker. Maybe when I did my Doom/Metal build with the Earworm? That one slaughter with mostly fleshy creatures? Idk. Not saying it’s a bad gun, or that I don’t like it. It’s great. Really makes it feel like you’re playing a little Doom in BL, to where it’s almost like a weapon and a COM in one. But at the end of the day, it’s a high-speed, high-damage fire shotgun. I’ll gladly trade a little bit of damage or fire rate for something more interesting, like an Anarchy, Heartbreaker, Trevonator, or Face-Puncher.

#68

That is why I said In my post

and what you suggesting is proof that the Iron bear and iron cub aren’t balanced with one being superior option to another. Let s face it there is only one skill that matter in that tree that is you do more fire damage when your Action skill is on cooldown which means you do not want an active skill like iron club and you want your action skill to remain on cooldown as long as possible, you do more damage like that than with Iron club

This is also the exact problem with Attunements and having skills that would boost a certain element type. Moze has so much incendiary damage boost that it is better than using electric against shields. The only time you switch is when the enemy is immune to fire how often does that happen ?

You want diversity in builds then its need some semblance of balance. Its just not there.