Squadron/Single-Ship Production Design/Balance Brainstorming

I made a post along these lines in the developer thread about formations and squadrons, but I thought this topic deserved its own thread if in-depth discussion and brainstorming was to be had on it.

Basically, in the formation/squadron thread, it is said that improving squadrons or making them more flexible might be a way to emulate formations to a point, but squadrons would need to be implemented into the HW1 races.

All of the discussion of this thread assumes that both squadron and single-ship production are plausible for implementation.

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm about and discuss the possible effects of squadron vs single-ship production.

Below are some options I have thought of, and some of their pros and cons, feel free to discuss them and come up with more options.

– Single-ship building vs squadron building adds distinction between the HW1 and HW2 races. On the larger “asymmetric” scale of things, it could be a difference of drawbacks and benefits for HW1 vs HW2 races, making the races more distinct and possibly more interesting.

– Having both as an option could open up a lot for the decision-making of all races. You could have a benefit and drawback (or multiple ones) for each – say, you can spend your RUs more precisely and get single ships out faster with single-building, but you get a squadron’s worth of ships out faster with squadron-building. The races would lose some distinction, which is bad, but all races would gain some more strategic options, which is good – whether that good outweighs the bad, I’m not sure.

– If you had the option for single-build or squadron-build for only the HW1 races, and only squadron build for the HW2 races, you could achieve race distinction while giving the HW1 races that strategic choice, but such strategic options for only the HW1 races might (in other words, not 100% sure if this would actually be an issue) be considered as unfair to the HW2 races unless something else was given to the HW2 races for their own strategic options. Such could be worth it, but would take more effort – first, in figuring out what exactly to give to or improve for the HW2 races, second, achieving balance with the new distinctions.

– Single-ship or squadron choice for HW2 races and just single-ship but dual-production and/or some other distinctive benefit for the HW1 races would be another option. Has the essentially the same pros and cons as the previous option but the races (HW1/HW2) are in reverse.

Brainstorm away! :smile:

1 Like

It seems obvious to me that in a situation like this, you go for what is closest to the original games.

Homeworld 1 races should have the option as it’s being shoe-horned into Homeworld 2 engine. Homeworld 2 races should be stuck with the formations.

It keeps asymmetry (which I think is good). It gives us reasons to try the other races, because they have things the others don’t.

1 Like

Bringing this over from the other thread since its brain storming.

What about the effects of special abilities with HW2 scouts? How effective should a single scout EMP be and how should it scale upwards give you could, with 20 scouts, light of 20 small emps, or one big one.

Also ping. Would it be possible to perma ping with like 6 scouts?

This isn’t really a thread for ship abilities. While numbers of ships with an ability can be somewhat related to how many ships are in a squadron, the purpose of this thread

If you can relate ship abilities to that and keep the discussion on that topic, go for it. :smile:

Btw, I actually made this thread partially because it seemed a production balance thread was missing from your thread index.

Yeah, keeping to the original is another thing that is good. However, keeping to the original when better gameplay can be achieved might not always be worth it – for multiplayer, anyway.

And the asymmetry about it is another good thing. I don’t know if the concern HW1 races getting an option while HW2 races don’t is a valid concern or not. HW2 races do have many perks (upgrades, etc), I don’t know if adding another (well-designed) perk for the HW2 races would be needed to be “fair” or not.

1 Like

The fact is, havng Homeworld 1 ships launch in squadrons really. . . is not even remotely close to Homeworld 1. In fact, it would be a glaring inaccuracy to many people. One of the most notable differences between Kushan and Hiigaran is that one has squads and the other does not. It’s immediately recognizable.

I think we just have to decide how unique we really want the races to be. Because in all honesty, we’re DESIGNING a game right now, we’re not just balancing it. Remastered really is something new.

1 Like

Noted, and it will be added :slight_smile:

My immediate reaction is that the squad vs. no squad command will be kind of tedious to manage.

My immediate concern would be the potential to spam EMP for the HW2 scouts. Some sort of cool down seems necessary. This probably applies to ping as well, but that’s kind of expensive to begin with and maybe doesn’t need a cool down.

What Gearbox is proposing sounds like it’s balanced with regard to build and dock mechanisms, but I think we need to see what’s happening with formations and hopefully tactics. Personally, I’m having major trouble letting go of the HW1 game mechanics I know and love, so brainstorming on just a portion of this is something I’m finding difficult.

Post added to index.

Should we limit this discussion to fighters and start a second for corvettes, or do you think corvette discussion is applicable here as well?

Since it’s about squadron vs single ship production, I think you can keep it combined.

Any strike-craft, including fighters and corvettes. Or if you have a good reason to talk about frigates possibly getting squadron production, but that’s a bit far-fetched to me haha

HW1 factions really can’t have squadron-grouping because of the Support Frigates. That is unless they can re-script the way the latch docking works, or unless the squadron can be broken back down into individual ships during external docking maneuvers. Either way means a lot of scripting I presume. But I’d kinda like to see the ability to toggle between squads and individual ships because it could mean the ability to individual-control HW2 strike craft for the first time.

Really I don’t think the squad/not-squad build differential between the factions has any flavor of race diversification. You just have pilots who don’t know how to work together (at current, until formations begin to work) and pilots who don’t know how not to work together, lol.

Of course some races only having squad build and some only having individual build is a balance issue too. I can’t really get around the fact that all losses for HW1 races have to be replaced, but HW2 strike craft can sustain up to 80% losses and recover them at no cost. That’s a big deal, and it’s why I think strike craft have to be standardized, regardless of whether it makes the races more diverse or not.

1 Like

I’m thinking this could be possible if it is possible for a single ship to leave a squadron as stated in the developer thread.

Wait wait wait here!

Could someone please explain to me why we need to give HW1 races squadrons? Can’t we just, I don’t know, remove squadrons from HW2 races?

You feelin’ me?

I’m coming down firm on the side that HW2 should keep their replenish, HW1 keep their single build. If either side becomes the other, support frigates are going to throw the balance all out of whack.

And I don’t think anyone is giving much thought to what this would do to HW2 vettes. HW2 vettes were designed to orbit and fire, ours strafe and fire forward. Breaking up and single forming HW2 vettes will probably not work right. Probably not as bad as ours flying around in circles waving at the target, but still I bet there is an adverse effect to a pulsar vette wall. Are we going to have the HW2 players constantly have to rebuild little 3 unit deltas or 4 unit walls every time a single one goes down? Or will a wall of Laser vettes just break up into 2 big walls orbiting a target? How will they know who to pair up with?

1 Like

Not really. HW2 vettes could be made to work fine and flock without being squadrons.
That said, the mere fact that they’re balanced around squadrons is all the reason you really need to keep them.
HW1 can be balanced around not needing the replenish.
Each way can have its benefits and drawbacks.

I’m yeah, pretty firmly against this whole breaking up and forming squads from single units thing, especially if it changes how HW2s works.
I’m also really against it because it’s not the problem. The problem is the unit behavior and control you have over them, not that they don’t stay in a pretty shape while doing the wrong thing.

1 Like

I agree. I hope they either keep them separate, or come up with something else

Honestly, this whole topic seems to be about making HW1 play more like HW2. I can’t say I’m a big fan.

I guess since we’re stuck with the merged MP, it’s somewhat reasonable balance-wise (in a very minor way), but it doesn’t address gameplay mechanics. I’d rather they focus on something more significant.

[quote=“innociv, post:16, topic:218060”]
HW1 can be balanced around not needing the replenish.Each way can have its benefits and drawbacks.
[/quote]I don’t know. I really don’t know. It doesn’t seem possible to me to properly balance any system where one set of strike craft need to have every individual casualty replaced no matter what, and another set of strike craft where between 100% and 20% of the individual casualties need to be replaced, completely at random. And I really fail to see why anyone should try to balance squads against individual builds, when it seems to me that we’re creating such a phony sense of tactical diversity, because, at the end of the day, all four factions are fielding fighters and corvettes. Why shouldn’t a fighter be a fighter be a fighter, and the same with a vette? I mean of course there are different kinds of fighters and corvettes, that are meant to accomplish different types of tasks based on stats and weapon loadouts. That, to me, is what should determine the tactical utility of a strike ship, not whether it’s arbitrarily-perma-grouped to a half-dozen buddies or not. There’s no in-universe rationale for this distinction, nor can there be.

I will note that BitVenom has also talked about knowing about and dealing with other issues in the future, I’m fairly confident ship behavior is included in that. Maybe that would be a better priority, but right now this is what they’re testing.

Also, remember that

So you could still keep single-ship production for HW1 and squadron production for HW2.

The biggest change would be using squadrons as a way to create formations that get around the problems they had previously trying to put formations in. That combined with future ship behavior changes should give some good ship control to the players.

Mainly this specific thread is for pros and cons of single-ship and squadron building for the HW1 and HW2 races, though. It seems like many so far would prefer it stay single-ship for HW1 and squadron for HW2, but there are also some with arguments for otherwise.