Suggestion for class action skills that deal damage like iron bear

so I have heard from several places that once you have a gun that outclasses a action skill, that action skill becomes useless and there is a really easy way gearbox could have dealt with this.
as everyone may have noticed items now have “item scores” aka ilevels, now the way you make class skill useful is have them scale off your class mods ilevel and rarity. Got a legendary class mod? well then iron bears guns will scale up to a legendary damage and fire rate of a vladof gun! same goes for fl4ks pets, Zanes drone/clone and amaras phase attacks! Might as well do this for everyones melee attacks so we actually have a reason to melee in end game!

This just seems like a really poorly thought out suggestion. Item scores aren’t really a good way to judge anything. Also melee is really viable at end game, hell even on fl4k let alone Amara. Item scores also change per level and everything that can drop at M3 can drop at M0 so it doesnt help end game scaling more than simply scaling it off of character level (as it is now). + the way it is now makes it so that you can run with crazier builds because you dont need to pay attention on the random number called “item score” on your stuff.

dude, ilevel and rarity determines a weapons overall stats and effectiveness, if your referring to the fact that some weapons and items are better than others regardless of this score then…well duh a flood is not going to out damage a flakker but that also boils down to weapon TYPE and EFFECT.
the vault hunters action skills already have a TYPE and EFFECT you can’t change! so the best thing to do is take the stats and scale it up to your gear so at least they deal damage comparable to something similar to them!
really dude your response was poorly thought out because you didn’t think about how the action skills work and how melee works, also there is nothing wrong with adding a little bit more bite to melee! if you think you have a better idea that is super complex and dumb lets hear it!

The thing you are suggesting makes it so you prioritize items with higher item scores even if they are worse items, simply because they will be buffing your action skill or melee.
As i mentioned before, this doesnt change anything in regards to the overall strength of your abilities compared to the current system where it all just scales off your characters level. Besides they already announced a patch coming that will buff these things, so lets discuss it after they made their changes and after we know if stuff still needs fixing.

most class mods ilevel is capped at around 521 so you will see a pretty even spread, its weapons whos iscores vary wildly from the high 400s to mid 500s on top of that the system can be set to scale UP or DOWN or even use the average item score of all your items, now lets do a quick check…oh look the average number is 500!
fires off little confetti popper look at that! you didn’t come up with anything and your comment about using the ilevels was rendered moot!

Right, so if we use your suggested system:
The developers will know exactly what the highest number on each level is off of which the skills can scale.
And to keep the game balance they will set the power level to that item score or whatever appropriately.
Now, whats the difference between scaling something off of best item score on each level or just per level? I honestly cant tell what the purpose of your suggestion is.

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Honestly I don’t see the point. To my knowledge all the character abilities scale perfectly fine on normal mode at all levels.

The issue is that they don’t scale with TVHM and/or the Mayhem Modes where enemies are given bonuses outside the scope of regular level 50 balancing.

So clearly they know how to balance these skills. Now all they need to do is implement a method of balancing them for these enhanced modes. Clearly we want these modes to be difficult, but we can’t have a long cooldown skill like Iron Bear being one shot or it loses all value.

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I think thats why you can switch all the augments without respecing. They probably wanted us to look at Mayhem modifiers and based on that choose the action skill and its augments. The problems arise when the given augment options dont have enough flexibility to change anything significantly so the action feels disabled and useless.

the point is the player will control the scale of the powers and will powers will deal increased damage and be USEFUL, did you not get that the reason they are not good is that once you hit 50 you might as well be throwing wet toilet paper?

Agreed, and that fixes the problem somewhat.

The issue is that there’s no real way to strengthen the numbers on most of the skills.

Look at Moze. She functions perfectly at all levels and difficulty because her skills are capable of increasing the power of her gear. The game gets more difficult with these modes but not unreasonably so. This holds true with all the characters.

Iron Bear though has almost nothing to increase his power in her trees. Almost all of Iron Bear’s buffs involve his duration and cooldown, which is fine when he’s scaling correctly, but we’ve already established he doesn’t. Who cares if you can summon him more often when he does nothing? Who cares if you can increase his armor so that he takes two hits instead of one?

I’m not super familiar with Flak and Zane, but I imagine their trees grant the pets more utility in stead of raw stats as well because I’ve heard similar if somewhat lesser complaints from those players.

Do you not understand that they can just set the current power level of the skills to be the one you get if your gear has the highest possible item score? It literally has to do with what they perceive should be the power level of the skill at any given time. No system change makes a difference if they keep the numbers the same at end game.
And if you are going to be buffing the skills, just use the current system and buff the damn skills. Still see no reason why a system change would do anything.

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Yea I think the iron bear was always intended as this “kill everything in sight while being tanky” thing, and at its current state it doesnt do much of anything. But again, we’ll see after the buffs, maybe they know how to fix it exactly and maybe we are arguing over nothing :smiley:

I don’t think that’s a good solution.

Item Score is a general sense of effectiveness. Some high score items are quite bad, and some low score items are quite good. What if a low score items synergizes powerfully with a character? Should that character be punished for using that item? Which item will the skills balance off of?

Also I’m not sure they can “JUST” implement such a system. It’d probably take a lot of coding and would undo 50 levels of perfectly fine balance. What about when they inevitably add another 20 levels? Why throw out a perfectly good scaling arc that will work fine except during mayhem mode?

I think what they should focus on is something like if you switch to mayhem mode I Iron Bear gets a 50% armor and damage buff, if you switch to Mayhem Mode II he gets a 75% armor and damage buff, and Mayhem Mode III he gets a 90% buff.

That would make Iron Bear scale slightly into these difficulties but slowly fall off as you would expect from an enhanced difficulty. Those numbers may not be correct but you get the idea.

Yea that sounds like somewhat of a reasonable fix. I dont see the appeal of item score that the OP has at all.

well overall because gearbox didn’t include a buff to class skills the best thing for it is to give it buffs based on overall gearscore, in the first borderlands artifacts made your action skill better, buffed the damage and changed its elements, in 2-3 the artifact changed to a player buff.
the more complex way of doing it is adding in a whole new screen just for gear for your action skills, for instance moze could attach guns she has found to her mech as well as armor that drops in the world. Flak can give his pets armor or whatever, zane can…well zane doesn’t really need any buffs hes pretty OP atm and amara can read books or whatever to get better with her mind powers and attach certain texts to her phase stuff

Or, you know, maybe just add new artifacts that change the action skills in some way? If thats the only thing you were looking for… I still dont see any argument here except that you think that certain things in the game needs a buff, and its getting buffed, so whats the conversation about?

yeah, i don’t see how this would change anything at all… it’s basically exactly how it works now except it scales of player level… so at level 50, it’s already at max potential (highest ilvl if you will). The root of the problem is that it’s just undertuned for some action skills.

as for melee, i’d love to see a change to this… melee in these games always feel terrible to me unless you focused on getting as much +melee damage as possible. i’d like them to increase the base value a bit and tone down the skills / weapon attachments some so that melee actually is some what useful when the need arise but not great unless you build into it. melee is useful early on but falls short quickly, imo. i realise it’s almost impossible to find the perfect sweetspot to make it useful while still make it feel worth it if you decide to make build around it.

slam damage seems rather weak, but i’ve also not played around much with slam boost relics… it would be cool if they added a shield or relic that actually focus on slam… allow you to jump a little higher so you can trigger slam on demand instead of looking for crates / slopes

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As for the melee thing, I think when playing on M0 on TVHM its pretty reasonable damage, it helps you finish off trash mobs without reloading your weapon as it does like 1/6-1/8 of their max HP. The problem with just buffing it at all is it would become oppressive in non-Mayhem levels (if its a reliable source of damage without any gear).
As it is now, Im seeing flak run around and melee people on M3 and that tells me that its in a good spot, because flak is in no way a melee character, and it still works fine.