Suggestions on balancing grenade Moze

I think the best approach to balancing the grenade spam “Immortal Gunner” build would be to either change Means of Destruction to only allow grenade regen proc chance on the initial tick of dot style grenades and similarly to change Vampyr to only allow health regen on the first tick of dot style grenades(or lower the amount of health recovered).

Or, alternatively, to take this line of thinking a step slightly further, it could be changed to where Means of Destruction can only regen grenades on splash damage done by guns(and Iron Bear).

The chance to regen a grenade could potentially be brought down to a lower percentage as well. With so much splash on top of splash to the splish splash, Moze is not lacking for opportunities to proc MoD.

Anyways, this would bring her into line without having to alter any items in the game.

I’m a Moze main myself and love her to death but in the interest of balance and build diversity I actually prefer the second option. Also if Means of Destruction was brought into line using the second option then Vampyr would likely not need to be touched.

She would still be ridiculously strong but would simply need to proc MoD via her guns(which, c’mon, that isn’t hard) and would prevent the mindless grenade spam without moving or aiming thus resulting in an engaging build that is still fun and powerful but you would now have to interact with the game to play (more than spamming one button lulz)

Just put a 5 second cooldown on MoD grenade proc effect and problem is solved. Much better than piling on more hidden interactions with specific items not documented anywhere.

I thought about it but not sure how effective that would really be. Ultimately that would just keep the current gameplay but just slightly slow it down. With grenade dots being able to proc MoD you are still guarenteed a grenade every 5 seconds.

The more I think about it, the more I hope they just change it to where grenades simply can’t proc MoD. Well Iron Bears grenades could but not Moze.

Besides would be as convaluted as you make it sound with “undocumented hidden interactions”.

Simply have it read: splash damage and impact damage from grenades da dut da da.

Or maybe don’t nerf everything to the ground that can actually clear content with good gear considering that UVHM will be even more bursty.
You need ■■■■ like this to survive 10+ armored badasses spamming rocket launchers at you from all directions.

Let’s not exaggerate there, buddeh. The absolute most bull I have seen so far is like 5 anointed together + some trash in offline M3 Slaghter Shaft or about same number of mechs in M3 Slaughterstar.

And while it is absolute balls, it is quite literally the pinnacle of difficulty there is right now in Borderlands. It should be pretty damn hard, not a snorefest.

Yes there will be UVHM and M10 and what not, but we will also be running with million points of shield and guns that to bajillion damage. So who cares what it will be, it’s irrelevant.

The survivability provided by whatever shield we have won’t matter. Even more than now it will be about how you can recoup your lost health/shields which is why Moze is so good right now.

Is Crystal Ball a world drop or farmed?

So Bloodletter, Means of Destruction, Vampyr, and mirv grenades all synergize to the point that Moze is practically unkillable , I can’t imagine this was intended so I’m curious how they will eventually change it.

So what are your thoughts on how they should change it? I personally think having an icd on Vampyr would solve the problem without ruining the playstyle. You could also do the same to Means of Destruction but imo that might be overkill as infinite ammo is kind of her shtick .

What worries me is they haven’t changed her in a hotfix when they’ve shown they can adjust talents that way with the Flak nerfs so it is likely they are planning something more drastic for her.


Helpful and constructive! Thanks for your input!

I gotta agree, that opening another thread with literally the same title seems odd. On topic, I hope they won’t break her grenade playstyle completely. I enjoy those synergies very very much.
.A possible solution could be an internal cooldown to grenade regeneration, mirv hex functioning differently, lowering class mod shield ratio. But there are alot of different mechanics coming together with Moze. Hopefully the devs know what they’re doing.

Threads merged. Could folks please take a little time to check for an existing thread before creating a new one? It would be appreciated!

(Also, if you see a duplicate thread, just use the custom flag option to alert the moderators so we can merge them.)

OK Back to grenade Moze discussion now…

To be fair, when I created this thread a few days ago there weren’t any topic on it yet, particularly not suggestions on how to potentially balance Mozes skills without touching any items(grenades).

I am glad to see the topic gaining some traction, as she is my favorite to play. I hope she can be balanced without being changed too drastically is all.

Edit: I did make a topic in Mozes subsection but after no discussion for days I made another topic in general section as I knew the issue would be coming up soon.

Which is my main worry with her right now. I feel like if they were planning something as simple as an icd they would have done that by now. I would hate to see the playstyle disappear even if it does need quite a bit of tuning.

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Yeah. I’m hoping perhaps it’s taking a while because they are balancing Iron Bear a bit as well and waiting to do this right.

Yeah, I’m a dreamer lol.

It seems like this build will not be very good against the real borderlands endgame: The Invincible Boss Raids.

Sure, it seems great at taking out a horde of enemies, but every vault hunter in every borderlands game has been capable of this feat with very little problem (until Zane that is).

Nerfing it now seems very premature. Why don’t we just wait to see how Moze does against The Invincible bosses after that content is inevitably released?

It works fine against single targets. Grenades such as the hex and stormfront will proc multiple times. Vampyr isn’t reliant on damage dealt or kill skills. It’s purely number of procs. The only adjustment Moze might need to make is to reserve a max 40% health so she can use health gating.

Invincibles that employ the mechanics Bl2 used aren’t likely to kill Moze.

True she will lose access to her kill skills and won’t be able to fully utilize desperate measures but otherwise she’ll be fine.

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What happens if the skill doesn’t allow her to generate grenades when targeting the boss?

What will happen if the Invincible boss moves faster than the grenades do? If Moze doesn’t have infinite grenades, could she die then?

What if the Invincible can hit hard enough to down her through the health regen?

My point is that B3 doesn’t have a real endgame yet. You are all asking for nerfs based on mobbing… In my experience, Fl4k and Amara are both taking down an individual target faster than Moze, AND my grenades are not AS good against a single target. why can’t we wait and see how she does when the real endgame is inevitably released. Side note: it might also be nice to have Fl4k restored to have 8 full seconds of GITM when the true endgame content is released.

If her skills are changed then anything is possible. But in the current iteration a Stop Gap shield and health gate guarantees Moze 5 seconds recovery and with Vampyr and the current iteration of Means of Distruction Moze will always be able to recover in those 5 seconds.

Stormfronts are pretty easy to carpet bomb with to catch faster bosses. Although there probably are ways such as flying enemies that she will struggle to keep her grenades effective. And as for running out of grenades that would be quite the task considering Moze can be set up to carry 19.

My point isn’t so much that she is impossible to counter as that she’s as well equipped as any of the 4 to survive the invincibles.

Health gate makes a 1 hit impossible, and the stop gap or a an artefact can then be used to give her a 5 second invincibility to recover.

Agreed and I wouldn’t be surprised if invincibles widen this
time gap.

I think that we agree on most things here…

The invincibles will require Moze players to consider all types of different gear for their build. Maybe the Hex grenade won’t seem so broken. Moze might have to move away from the front loader/transformer shields.

Fl4k and Amara may be the true champions of the REAL endgame. We need to wait an see.

But our conclusions seem to be different (and I can’t figure out why)…

My conclusion is: Let’s wait to see how all builds play in the real endgame before we ask for nerfs to any characters. Therefore, the time to nerf/balance Moze is in the future, not now… because we don’t know if she will even be good against the real endgame. AND, I’d like to see the 8 seconds to GITM restored to Fl4k, at least until after we see how it is against a real opponent. Do you agree with these conclusions?

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