Suggestions to improve the "End Game" of BL3

This is a x-post from reddit so I decide to put it here as well, Original post can be found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/borderlands3/comments/ddj8li/the_inherent_problem_of_the_end_game/

There is a problem in BL3 right now and it’s what you can call “End Game” Every patch it seems like Gearbox is treating the symptoms, not the root cause of the issue. What I mean by this? The nerfs to Chuba, Tink and Tree-Dude farming is not solving the issue. The players has to have something meaningful to do once they completed their tour of the main campaign.

Give players something meaningful to do.

Me and my buddies were hyped to go in to Mayhem 3 back in the day and be like “oh man, we need to do this fast and furious style to get the sweet sweet loot we so desperately want.” Which in the end turned out to be a waste of time. The loot in the end isn’t worth it, mostly blues and epics at max level and max difficulty. Only thing that changed is the money rewards you get in the end and lets face it, no one really needs those cash rewards. Plus along the way we got like 1 legendary each which eventually were sold to Marcus for another cash flow in to our pockets.

Only thing we found “worth it for the cause” is to do Slaughter Shaft But I will come back that to later. If trials are supposed to be part of your endgame philosophy, make running them worth it and rewarding.

By completing difficult challenges, players should be rewarded accordingly.

What I mean by this, let me give you an example.

For example in Diablo 3, You have these things called “Greater Rifts” and those are basically same as Trials in BL3, You have a limit of 15 minutes to beat the Greater Rift and in the end you are rewarded with legendaries, Harder Greater Rift, more legendaries in the end. And harder it gets more monsters and tougher monster spawn. The monsters also have increased damage as well as health and defenses and greater variables as well. (Such as reflect damage and so on.)

Or in Path of Exile, there is this mechanic called “Delving” the deeper you delve in to those mines, More difficult it gets but the rewards are justified to explore deeper and deeper in to those mines.

Right now I don’t see a reason to run a trial in any way than just normal mode. As the rewards are practically the same.

Don’t even get me started on the big transparency of rewards between all of the arena fights. Where Slaughter Shaft can net you around 10-20 legendaries per 5 rounds where the beast one give you 1-5.

As of now whilst posting this we currently are having the first week of the Halloween event going on and there is little to no incentive to do things like Katakawa Jr. or Pain and Terror due (Specially Pain and Terror as they don’t seem to drop any legendaries at all)

Nerffing Loot Tink/Chuba/Tree-buddy/ Is just treating the symptoms, not the main culprit.

Players tend to gravitate towards what is the most rewarding way to farm for themselves and that sadly still is Big Gravewarden himself. As I stated before, the rewards on current endgame isn’t substantial enough give players the challenge and the rewards they so desire. So people like me gravitate to do the same 15 second game loop just to get that gear you so desperately desire. Getting 1 legendary from 204 Legendaries in the game and trying to get one with proper rolls and or anointed is a nightmare.

I will say. Farming Gravewarden is no fun and it’s giving me slight burnout because of it. As it’s the only farm now that’s really worth doing if you even want to do well in Mayhem 3.

COV? More like Elite Strike Force!

Let’s talk about the issue that is COV in Mayhem 3. The rag tag group of bandits that are the major faction we fight in BL3. And those are more well trained than your Maliwan forces.

My brothers and sisters who farm Mayhem 3 know that whenever you are fighting COV there are always two things that are always true, Anointed and Bad-asses with Rocket Launchers.

BA’s With Rocket Launchers Are way over-tuned for the entire mode. These bad boys and girls do need to get nerffed sooner or later. I’m not meaning in damage or health but…

A.) How fast they fire.

B.) Pinpoint accuracy

They literally are more of an threat than Maliwan snipers who generously tell that you are about to get shot at with that laser sight of theirs, but these people they just bust trough the door and before you know it that one guy has already put 3 rockets down the range coming your way and doesn’t matter how fast you go with Amara or Zane, they always will connect with you, no matter where you go. Just please for the love of god reduce their accuracy and/or firing speed.

Anointed Are a neat gimmick for the first few times you fight them but they scale off the hinges in Mayhem 3. CC immunity is fine and all but why do you have to make them immune to Cryo damage, specially when one of your vault hunters is desperately relying on cryo damage to do it’s thing. (Poor Zane, I feel you man) Oddly enough I think the rewards are good for what you get from killing an anointed but the core issue relies on the fact that the Anointed themselves feel such a padding out to artificially increase the difficulty level of the COV which already are the hardest to fight to begin with. Reduce the health of anointed or make them resistant to cryo, not immune is a good way to start making them good to fight against.

Look in to balancing the End Game Arenas

Why is it that Slaughter Shaft is pretty much the only one worth for farming legendaries? Why does it give you 10x more legendaries then any of the other arenas. How many times I’ve gotten team mates who quit in matchmaking if it’s not Slaughter Shaft?

Maybe look in to it. Make them worth farming. I’d like to play something else than Rocket Hell for once.

Let’s talk about Mayhem 3 for a moment.

First of all. I’m all for it. I want more difficulty levels in the game as most of the game was a cake walk to begin with. But in whose bright mind was it to make Mayhem 3? Mayhem 3 is not fun or challenging in a fair way. Most of the games if you queu up with matchmaking to a Slaughter Shaft one, if there is any kind of -damage to guns or elemental damage you can be sure that most hosts quit jut to re roll the dice again and as a player who wanted to join the game one it feels infuriating just to be kicked back to main menu because of it.

Randomness is fun, but randomness in a challenge is not fun. The increased health for enemies and so on is good but adding minus modifiers in to the game that really null and voids people’s builds will just make them stop trying in the end.

That’s why Grawevarden is such a good boss to farm because doesn’t matter the modifiers he will still go down in 5-20 seconds, depending on your build and your vault hunter. Even people who play Zane can kill him before he has stopped tipping the platform you stand on.

I do whole heartedly recommend for Gearbox to look in to how they do increasing difficulty in games such as Path of Exile and Diablo, OFC they are different type of games but the things they do right in increasing the difficulty has been done well. Why try to re-ivent the wheel? If the shoe fits, wear it.

EDIT: To Clarify, when we are talking about difficulty people want reliability, not randomness.

Last but not least.

Let’s be real here chief, Give us an actual shooting range where we can see our damage numbers and how well our builds handle. Who care about some silly shooting minigame…

TL;DR

Instead of nerffing current loot farm locations, give players incentive to do harder content that rewards accordingly and not some crappy hand-me-downs.

Thank you for coming to my TED-talk.

PS. Give us a shooting range, will ya?

PPS.Really… give us a real shooting range, I’m sure Ellie has enough scrap and ducktape laying around…

EDIT 2: Fixed issue where I used term “Cistern of Slaughter” whilst talking about Slaughter Shaft… My bad.

EDIT 3: The Zane build that I was talking about. Credit goes to Svenskommandö for recording this vid: https://streamable.com/0ms6z

EDIT 4: Another video from Svenskommandö with Zane. This time with no bonus modifiers to the build from Mayhem 3: https://streamable.com/ibdy4

EDIT 5: I’m surprised about the fact that these problems do resonate with people, but it seems like that some people are missing the point. Comments like “You play too much” or “this game is just to be played over and then waited for the dlc” Are quite ignorant and lacking the foresight what makes games relevant. For some of us paying 60 dollars/euros/regional equivalent is a big sum and can’t afford just to jump ships when ever a new shining gem comes along. And 2nd of all, with the current day and age you need to keep your consumer engaged and playing your game till you can get more sales via DLC and what not. If the players play for few days complete the story and then move on, from those customers only a handful will come back once you release a new set of content, but if you keep people engaged in your game till the DLC comes along, you are prone to get more sales out of them. I do value your arguments on this matter, but as we as consumers are already drowning in amount of games being released it is important for the developers to keep us interested in their product as long as they can. Plus let’s face it. It’s been so long since last mainline Borderlands release and we do want to enjoy it more than just the lenght that it takes us to complete the main storyline.

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How about putting in an endgame to begin with.

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We just need more content its simple as that… this is TL;DR big time.

ProdigyDon’t ■■■■ it , Phaselock it!

We just need more content its simple as that… this is TL;DR big time.

The Critique wasn’t about the amount of content we have, it is on how they are handling the current content that we have available to us.

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Well put. In additional to balancing the rewards of Circle of Slaughters, they could add rare spawns to the enemy pool to change things up. Maybe change up the loot pool too. Definitely agree with the Annointed being immune to cryo damage. They should still remain immune to freeze. TVHM needs to be looked at again, since there’s little incentive. Personally, I’d like more vendors to spawn more epics to farm COMs.

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This post is important please Gearbox read it !!!
Full of truth !!!

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I gained a tone of gears from Captain Traunt on Mayhem 2 or 3. I play as Fl4k and have a pretty vicious damage build. I kept using an electrified COV pistol with high fire rate(SkekSil). Usually takes him down in less than 30 sec combined with action skill. Drops are very frequent and rewarding. On offline farming you would expect 2-3 drops per kill.

I do think some kind of infinitely (or near infinitely) scaling dungeon/challenge is essential to have in an ARPG…and BL3 is an ARPG at heart even though it’s also a FPS. But at the same time, I don’t want to be locked into constantly doing those infinite dungeons over and over again while the rest of the world gets completely neglected.

Diablo 3 had a good idea with what they tried to do with bounties, wings, goblin shrines and rainbow goblins. The intent was to encourage you to go out into the regular world and maps occasionally to explore and see if you can run across some of these things. The problem is, for the most part it still isn’t worth it. No matter what, grinding Greater Rifts is the most efficient use of your time for improving your gear/stats. I want to have a good reason to just go out and poke around the world to hunt for rare spawns or treasure that I can’t get in the challenge arenas.

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Traunt and Gigamind both are pretty good farms, but I think the post isn’t so much about availability of gear and it’s sources. He’s more talking about end game content, the need for legitimate challenge and reward for pursuing what gb has included as end game content. They are working on it though, which is good.

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I am so burnt out that I went back to BL2 and TPS… and I agree with OP, The “endgame” gets boring rather quick and farming bosses without dedicated loot dropps is fun only for so long.
I was trying to get Hellwalker shotgun since I learned it exists, yet didn’t get it to dropp from anything. Completed countless rounds of Slaughter shaft solo or in group, killed Traunt and Graveward 200 times at least and nothing… What is even more frustrating is that 90% of legendary dropps I get, I already have at this point, same schields relics and granade modes over and over. When I get something new, I have nowhere to store it without mules. Also with the gear I farmed, I have no troubles with M3 and besides all immune anoited militants, there is no challenge, nothing new to discover or explore.

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Its probably spread over a dozen DLCs…

I still don’t get why people consider circles of slaughter and proving grounds ‘endgame’. Are we meant to return to this after the dlc is released?

Endgame is supposed to be content you can still play and enjoy once the team has moved on to the next title… When nothing new is coming to BL3 because they’ve started BL4 will you really keep coming back to these game modes?

The slaughters and grounds are really only alternate methods of farming gear for those that get burnt out on boss runs (although the grounds really don’t do this) and still looking for the perfect set up. What they need is content that challenges you once you have your gear in order to fulfill the ‘endgame’ hole in the series.

As such Maliwan takedown (and future raids) is really the foreseeable endgame content we should be looking for. I’m not saying these things don’t need fixing but they’re not really ‘endgame’.

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People are considering it “endgame” for 2 reasons. #1 it is by far the biggest source of legendary drops. Or drops per minute if you will. Secondly, even though it’s artificial difficulty 100% due to screen pollution and overpowered rocket spamming mobs, it’s still the main challenge available in the game.

There is really no other place offering any difficulty. The thing is, mostly only gimmicky builds work there, which is a shame. Most of this is due largely in part that we don’t have an actual true difficulty mode at this point and only a random mode.

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Honestly I’ve never understood “endgame” to have that meaning. I’ve always understood it to simply mean the things you can do after you’ve finished the main campaign and perhaps achievements. I mean, Gearbox people have been interviewed specifically about “endgame” and they’ve generally replied with discussion about PG/Circle/Mayhem mode. I don’t remember them ever saying anything along the lines of “Well, we’re not really at the point of endgame yet because we got a lot of DLC coming.”

Want to improve the end game, class based horde mode & more vault hunters including the return of classic vaulthunters.

Yeah I get what you’re saying, but look at the end game they’ve had in previous installments… Non existent right? That’s because not every game needs end game content… Of course when you ask people what their end game approach is in a game that doesn’t need it you’ll get filler responses.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s great that folks got 7 years of enjoyment from BL2… And it would be great for folks to get the same bang for their buck with this installment. However we shouldn’t just be changing terms to fit into whatever we want… End game when done well is not how to farm gear - it’s what you play when you’ve got nothing left to farm.

Borderlands is a looter-shooter… You are farming gear for the game. Their version of end game makes sense because it’s all about the loot - but it’s not really end game and unless they’re planning to release 200ish new legendaries a year for the consumer to keep farming… It doesn’t need an end game either.

Unless the raids really turn out to be not about the reward but the excitement of challenging content and completing it - then they’ll introduce a real end game mechanic to the series. Otherwise it’s all just nonsense honestly… People talking about an industry mechanic they don’t even understand.