Surrender is literally killing PC play

Quit bans do not work for any game. They just spend the ban playing something else.

If the population were higher and the game supported Join In Progress then we’d have a different story.

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That’s the point. Less toxic players at least for some time. Still better than nothing.

Join In Progress is never gonna happen in Battleborn, it’s not an arena shooter.

Yes it is indication that for many people a game is only worth playing as long as you are winning. Next time I play basketball or football with my friends I will also need to quit if my team starts loosing.

P.S. And it’s not BB fault, you can take almost any mp game nowadays and run into the same problem.

I’m not suggesting the winning team have any sort of say over a surrender as that would just be abused. All I’ve been saying from the beginning is that there shouldn’t be a surrender option to begin with.

The reason I keep including 10 players in the argument is because all 10 of them clicked Quick play for a reason–they wanted to play a match. They are searching because they want a good session, not some half-assed hollow victory/sudden loss due to surrendering.

Picture this: You’re Attikus. You’re 10 minutes into a match of incursion, you’ve been running about doing your best to tag minions, and gather shards, maybe you’ve even snagged a kill or 2, slowly but surely you’ve been working your way up the levels, trying to reach your game changers.

Now because of this you maybe haven’t had that much of an impact or a presence for your team and thus the enemy team has taken middle and are constantly harassing your sentry, one bad wipe and your sentry is gone.

But, you’ve also just hit level 5, got your regen, perhaps popped most of your gear, you’re fired up, levelled up and ready to–

XXMLG PRO SNIPES HAS CALLED FOR SURRENDER AND TWO OTHER WIMPS HAVE ACCEPTED

Suddenly that match felt like a complete waste of time, a totally dissatisfying session, so once again you’re back searching hoping that this time you’ll actually get to play for longer than 10 minutes.

It sucks. It sucks balls, and any late bloomer lover will have felt this pain at some point.

I haven’t ignored your points about ignorant players, I just didn’t feel they were relevant. You say players surrendering is due to not understanding the game, but how so? You’ll likely be familiar with the game enough to even know you can surrender. As a user pointed out in this thread the great irony is that it’s the dedicated, the ones you always run into that are the ones surrendering.

It has nothing to do with ignorance, we were all new and we all had to learn. None of us had tutorials, instructions, we just jumped in, got our teeth kicked in, and learned through losing.

It’s how you succeed at anything.

And why do you keep implying that having team mates quit is somehow worse than having the entire match forfeited?

I-ME, THIS GUY wants to play, I don’t care if it ends up woefully uneven, DO NOT DRAG ME DOWN WITH YOU.

Giving up? That’s great! Give up somewhere else, and let me squeeze a kill or 2 out, let me try and revenge kill that dude that keeps taunting me. Or let me get my head kicked in until we eventually lose or the timer runs out, either way I’m here to play the game and try my best, not give up at the first sign of challenge.

Win? Good, next match.
Lose? Unlucky, next match.
Surrender? GTFO.

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game clearly isn’t addicting enough for most players to endure any punishment and come back

with small playerbases the devs no longer have the freedom to use finely tuned matchmaking

however one of the core things that chased a TON of players away from this game was solo q players vs premades. gbox could have fixed that at the very beginning but chose not to do so. Prolly based on some seminar on skinner box mechanics and addictive behavior patterns. Instead of just keeping those separate gbox gave everyone surrender options.

this game has seriously had the worst matchmaking i have ever witnessed in an online competitive mp game. Think I had some post when I was drinking beer and playing early after release. I was put against FOURTEEN premades in a row. I stopped posting but it ran up to 18 if I recall correctly. gbox didn’t try to separate them AT ALL. So a gigantic amount of solo q players quit because they were tired of being placed into unbalanced matches over and over again. Then the premades quit because their q times starting growing or they had already unlocked everything easily farming the solo q’ers.

This ain’t rocket science.

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Just wondering, what would you -and everyone else here- say, in turn, to guys like this

To me it’s all lost and no Surrender voting removal AKA force’em to keep playing or GTFO or any dose of punishement will dicourage “the type” from this kind of behaviour.

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Success doesnt have to come as part if a miserable experience. There are as many ways to learn and teach as there are players.

Why should players be forced to play and not enjoy it? I agree, surrender is not the best option. The best option is for the game to be fun regardless of whether youre winning or not… and that isnt gonna happen with battleborn.

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Yes, absolutely. That does sting quite a bit.

But it still comes down to more than just there being a button to surrender.
Why are the other players not aware of the fact that the Attikus will turn it around after level 5?
I can think of two options:

  1. They are not aware of late-gamers. This is just down to not properly understanding how the game works, and yes, it is not a good one. But on the other hand, it is so common amongst even CR 100s that we just can not ignore that fact. Even a significant amount of CR 100s who play late-gamers perform quite badly with them.

  2. They simply do not believe the Attikus can change the outcome of the match.
    Of course, this might most likely be due to the former point. There are so many bad players around, nobody wants to give anyone the benefit of a doubt.

Bonus round!
3) They are simply so thick-headed that any struggle causes them to want to give up. Why people are like this is beyond me. But they exist and they seem to be quite common in MOBAs. My guess is it is because matches are a big time-investment so when players see it going badly, they assume the game will be a downward spiral from here and opt to cut their loss and try going for the next one.
Again, I do not understand people like this. I can not stress that enough.
But they exist, there are many of them and we have to accept that.

And that is the problem. All these reasons come down to ignorance in one way or another. So yes, my points about ignorant players are very relevant.
It is to me still baffling how people can play a game like this more than 100 hours and still lack basic knowledge of when to back off from a kill or how important it is to kill minions.
I played Super Monday Night Combat (a game very similar to Battleborn for those who do not know) and I saw the very same issue there. People play the game for obscene amounts of time and still have no real understanding of it. They make the same mistakes, they fall for the same traps, all in the same match, several times.

To follow your Attikus example, I have been in similar situations. I have even told the team that we have lots of late-gamers, so we might lose our first sentry or let the enemy reach 250 in Meltdown first before we can turn it around.
Sometimes they listen, and we turn it around and we feel good about ourselves.
But equally as many times, if not even more, people do not listen, they vote for the surrender, it ends.
Does it sting? Yes, a little bit. People did not listen. They were ignorant.
But if they left, I would be stuck in a game I would not enjoy. 3 people opted to surrender. If that many people would leave, I would basically be forced to stay in spawn or get obliterated. Neither options sound particularly enjoyable to me.
I could say the exact same if I were on the other side of things. I want a fair game.
If the enemy team is being obliterated by my team, then I understand why they surrendered.
If it is an even game and they surrender, it might confuse me. If they had leavers instead, I would have to either leave myself or play an uneven game. If I play, I would either take it slow and see if the leavers get back (could just be a DC) or I would have to go all out and make sure the game ends as fast as possible, to shorten the misery of a bad game as much as possible.

But we also have to look at this through a new player’s eyes.
Imagine a new player starting the game. Blue-eyed and interested.
But due to the current size of the population, (s)he is very likely to get stuck in games against very experienced players.
We have all seen this happen, this is reality at this point.
So if said new player gets in a game that is completely one-sided, why should they not have the option to opt out? They may literally get into an unwinnable scenario. And for a new player to get completely shredded in games is not particularly fun. Especially not when they get aware enough to recognise the enemies they face. They might get teamed up against the same team that stomps them all the time.
We have the surrender option for people like that. For situations like that.

Yes, there are lots of people who are very “surrender-happy” and it is a problem.
Yes, that means the surrender option gets used in situations where it should not be.

As it is right now, Battleborn sadly does not have the numbers to have proper matchmaking, which means we do regularly get uneven matches and that means people do not enjoy the game. And there is the problem, because we all play to enjoy the game.

Does the game need better incentive to keep playing instead of surrendering?
Yes. It should not need it, but right now it does.
What kind of options do we have?
I can only think of a few.

  1. Surrendering gives full credits/EXP to winners, but NOTHING to the losers.
    Of course, numbers could be changed around here and there, but give the surrendering team a big warning that they will lose out on goodies if they surrender. I do think winners should be awarded the full amount. Else it can lead to abuse of people surrendering right before a proper ending of the game.

  2. Let people join other games if they leave. Yes, this will cause leaving to increase substantially, but players also know they can just opt out of one game with a sacrifice of credits/EXP from that game and quickly try to find another, better match.
    Leavers could always have lower priority in matchmaking, to have some added penalty and incentive to stick around more than loss of credits/EXP.

TL;DR
Right now there is only one guaranteed way to avoid a surrender on your side. Play with at least two other people. You now have a team majority as long as you stick together. Not ideal, but it works.
… And with the low population, playing with people might be the only way to find games somewhat quickly anyways.

But again, I cannot stress this enough, we need players to understand this game’s mechanics. For every good player in this game, we have maybe 10 that feed, do not kill minions, are constantly out of position and then surrender early.
People do not understand the game, people get upset at the game and people give up on the game. As long as these issues are around, I think Battleborn will sadly not be able to retain a stable population.

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Thank you. I am a solidly middle-tier player, but I do worry about this with even my own meagre kill counts, and I agree completely. One recommendation I would make is this - to the people that simply cannot ease up on level 2’s and 3’s - at least pay it forward and die to them a few times. If you want your 25 kills, fine - go over, kill two people, but then die to the third. We’ll never know how many level 2’s and 3’s have quit because they started playing, got stomped in 2, 3, 4 matches or so, and then just gave up.

In my own second or third PvP game, I had a short emergency, so I had run my character away from the middle and behind a wall. I didn’t know about teleport-to-base at the time. I came back about 20 seconds later to find my character dead and being taunted. I don’t recall the player’s exact level, but it was in the 80’s. It takes a special kind of person to taunt after killing an AFK level 4.

It isn’t a level 2’s fault that they don’t have a pre-made of four 100’s with them, and Battleborn maps, modes, and characters are very much more complex than a traditional deathmatch. Level 2 doesn’t mean these people are bad, but it does USUALLY mean that they’re inexperienced with Battleborn’s characters and systems, which can be just as much of a handicap. If you give them a glimmer of hope and enough enjoyment to fuel a desire to get better, they will learn the game and eventually become your new friends or competent opponents.

Or, you know, you could kill them with Pendles 35 times, taunting each kill, while avoiding map objectives and drawing out the game as long as possible to stroke your fragile sliver of self-worth. While you’re at it, maybe you could celebrate each kill by kicking a puppy or two - I hear that’s loads of fun as well.

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I’ve agree to surrender when my team is winning to give the match to the losing team. Who can get mad about that? thay would be the winner but yet also the loser team.

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What it is dead may never die

PC has been a corpse floating down river for almost 1 month now

I’m not going to comment a lot on the topic, but I’ll say this;
I’d rather have 10 games that end in surrender, than have 10 games with leavers/afkers.

Had a mighty nice 4v2 today :’)

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@penk

Bravo!

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I wasn’t refering to your post, I know that matchmaking doesn’t always take 30 minutes but I’ve read this number a couple of times. Plus, even 10 minutes would be too much for me.

Lets be honest here, how often do you turn around matches where your sentry loses 25% health within the first three minutes? How often do you turn around matches where your whole team dies before the 2 minute mark? That happens rarely and just because 1 out of maybe 15 games ends with a glorious turnover It’s not really worth it trying every time. At least in my opinion.

1.) I have to be honest here I’ve almost never had the case where my team wanted to quit because we were not winning instantly. And the quote where “Surrender” is succesfull is about 50/50 I’d say. So even if we’re getting hammered, my teammates often want to stay in the game.

2.) People buy the game to have fun. And uneven matches aren’t fun. Simple as that.

3.) If you vote for surrender it takes at least 3 votes to end the game, so you’re technically not dragging your team mates down.

And that’s basically were I have to disagree. I have no problem losing matches, you can’t win every time but to people like me getting stomped isn’t fun at all. It’s frustrating. Why on earth would I participate in something that’s frustrating? Regarding the credits/experience, let’s be honest who cares about credits or experience?

And then what? The remaining two players are getting murdered. That’s not fun either, neither for your enemies nor for you.

Like I said before, it’s very rare that teams come back after losing their whole team within the first minutes. Theres almost never a comeback when the enemy team goes 300/20 in meltdown … and well, once you were cleared from the capture map it’s also over.

Well why would they leave, they can’t find any other matches and miss XP and Coins. Like I said, I believe most people don’t care about coins but as long as you’re not able to do something else you might as well sit and wait.

Nope. If surrender goes it will take more players with it.

To summarize my point of view in a few words:

Surrendering after beeing down one man or dying once is stupid. No doubt about that. But from my experience (Xbox One) this is rarely the case. Surrendering after taking an enormous beating within the first minutes on the other hand is completely fine. Although there are chances to comeback, turnovers happen way to rarely to justify playing (and dying) for another 10 minutes.

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We had a team surrender at 100-100 last night… How can that be?!

I basically agree with what RAAMzilla wrote. I dont know from where people who use surrender came, but Im from competitive fpp shooters scene, and Im baffled by what I saw in this game. For me comebacks are the daily basics of online gaming, and they are usually most fun at that. You cant really be a good player and use surrender early on or even in mid game, without proper competitive mindset you will never be a top player.

It is even more baffling because already mentioned one late game wipe in incursion is enough to change everything. I play mostly Mike, and if after level 5 enemies will lose their focus I can easily damage sentry by myself in under 2 minutes.

People should just quit, and Gearbox should add possibility to join game in progress so others could take their place.

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That’s only in competitive environment. Battleborn doesn’t have that unless you play in tournaments hosted by a third party company/individual. In incursion you will rarely have a match against equally skilled opponents (at least that’s the case on Xbox). It’s either your teamates are too great or you are outclassed by your opponents but rarely on the same level from both sides. It only takes 1 below average skill player to ruin your whole team against 5 higher skilled enemies. so when you are getting stomped by a large margin there’s an extremely low chance to make a comeback. The only option is to surrender or keep enjoying the deaths and boring match.

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How was the team that vote for surrender playing? I’ve agree to surrender on 100-100 matches based on how awful my team is playing and seeing how the opponents are just stalling the match to rank up kills

It was Echelon, so we had them on the stairs but all it takes is a little push and a minion and a kill and you can get out. They just gave up. We only had them pinned for 1 min tops.

That map is so poorly designed that once you are cornered to the first sentry, you won’t be able to get out (if you are up against any decent, competent opponents)