Takedown Update Political Derailment Thread

I went ahead and provide cited facts and sources along with pictures and diagrams. I’ve dumbed it down as much as possible due to the universal fact people see a wall of text and links and dont read 99% of it

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Statisticians are like lawyers with numbers. They can make them say whatever they are paid to make them say. But I’m not posting to refute any number of assertions or infographics. I would, however, like to say that whether or not George Floyd was a man with a criminal past (violent or otherwise), there are amendments in the constitution that assure that even criminals have rights. Due process, humane treatment, all that. So ignoring the fact that there appears to be a problem that some wish to ignore/emphasize depending on their political opinions, he was entitled to better treatment than he received.

Here’s an introduction to criminal rights in case anyone has forgotten or would like to know.

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Fyi no one is disputing that the cop is wrong and guilty. What many have an issue with is this ludicrous claim that this is systematic racism and oppression against blacks. The facts, statistics , dont support that at all.

Also Chauvin has 17 prior complaints against him. Do you know how many of those who he harassed were white or Asian or literally any other race ?

Just sounds like an ■■■■■■■ to me, not a racist

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Translation: these well cited and unbiased statistics dont support my fantasy so I’m going to just say they dont count and move on

Sadly, statistics are literally the most unbiased source there is.

Edit : again the argument is not whether the officer was wrong or not. He was. Thst is not what we are debating. This is called a straw man argument

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Don’t worry, you certainly have.

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So if the cop is guilty, what is wrong with Gearbox using specifically the ongoing protests for justice on their social media channels?

This is what started the thread. Gearbox, or more accurately, 2K, using the ongoing real-world events to post a message of (nominal) solidarity. This is what you originally criticised, and what kicked off most of the rest of the comments.

If you want to specifically get into a discussion just about systemic racism in the US, sure, I can focus on that. But I also want to understand your objections to 2K in light of a murder you agree was a crime.

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Thanks man. Got to get down to my opponents level, unfortunately

GbX message mentions black lives matters and racism against blacks , both of which are completely refuted as fantasies by facts and statistics .

If their post just said "standing up against police brutality against people of all races " then sure I’d be on board. Police often go on power trips.

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That was sarcasm, if you couldn’t tell. Or not. I don’t care much.

These statistics that look like they were made on Microsoft Word ultimately don’t mean anything without proper sources, and even then to constantly convince yourself that these are the “hard facts” instead of looking at the broader reasons of class/race divide that allow these to even happen is more of an “emotional argument” than hard facts.

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No. Translation: I’m not here to engage that, and am going out of my way to not even state my opinion. I might even agree with you. Please don’t try to put words in my mouth. I don’t claim to understand the hows or whys of any of this. I do think we don’t get to decide if people that feel offended or slighted are justified in that. You can cite anything you like, I’m not here to fact check or fight with you, nor did I reply to you directly. I made the only point I cared to, and now am punching out. K? Thx. Bai

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Literally every since one of those diagrams lists sources and in most cases direct links. You just dont like that reality doesnt align with your fantasy so you are attempting to discredit them. Or you just think you’ll send me on a wild goose chase to hold your hands and take you directly to the sources, doing all the work while you sit and basically do nothing.

Open a new tab, go to Google, and type in “black crime statistics” . There you can start with that if you genuinely want to become a more educated , well informed individual

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So you admit there’s a power imbalance then? Because that’s like, a huge part of racism.

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Wtf am i reading this OP correctly? Someone who actually agrees with me?

OP i know we just met, but I’m a bit star struck

I thought it was pretty clear ?

More whites are killed by cops than blacks each year. So no there is no racism associated with statistics on police brutality. The issue Is police brutality in general not against a specific race

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Then if by own admission you dont know much about this topic then I agree you shouldn’t comment . What value would that add to the discussion? If I wasn’t armed with facts and statistics I didnt join in until I did

So you wouldn’t have called it “dumb political pandering” if it hadn’t posited structural racism against black people specifically. If they’d just been a bit more generic, you wouldn’t have criticised the move on political grounds at all?

Honestly, I doubt that.

You called the DNC communists. This alone indicates a rather weird worldview that isn’t shared by facts or evidence. But let’s ignore that, move past it, and focus on a couple of the sources you’ve shared, that you consider incontrovertible evidence of your claims.

In the last two images you share, you share a running total of the number of people shot dead by police from 2017 to 2020. This evidence puts white people at the top of the list.

But it doesn’t weight by population at all! Thankfully, the next image does. The next image tells us that there are 197 million non-Hispanic white people in the US, compared to 38 million black people (as identified by whatever source the image neglects to cite, but it’s fine, I don’t mind at this point).

We can use this to weight the previous image. It turns 457 white deaths by police in 2017 into 457 / 197,000,000 * 100 for an overall percentage of 0.00023% (to two significant figures) of white people killed by police that year.

Let’s do the same for black people shot dead by police in 2017. 223 / 38,000,000 * 100. 0.00059% (again to 2sf). They’re both arguably-small numbers, but the black death rate is more than twice the rate white people were shot dead at. This is exactly the point @paulothead was getting at.

The table you have provided makes it look like white people are suffering more at the hands of the police than black people. The reality is that black people are killed at more than twice the rate of white people in the US by the police (and this trend doesn’t look to change for the next three years of the table). Does that make sense?

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So will I :wink:

While I like those cute readymade pics, I’ll take the time to poke a little fun at them.

Let’s start with the number of people shot to death by the police, sorted by race. The statistic shows that about twice as many caucasians were shot to death by the police (457 to 223).

What it doesn’t show is the US have about six times the number of caucasians compared to blacks: 73,0 % to 12,7 % (2013-2017 American Community Survey). Which puts the number of shot citizens into context.

The best cited statistic just sank due to lack of context.

Next up:

Full study is included at the bottom of the article.

Of course this may not match the readymades, but at least it is grounded on research.

Being civil doesn’t seem to be your style, I take it? Try acquiring some manners, kid.

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I ain’t got no one to please, so

Literal FBI data of murders in 2013(yes it’s a bit outdated, but it was during Obama’s terms in office) in America. Blacks kill each other more than whites kill blacks, I’m not sure why they hate each other so much, but they really seem to.

Even with the fact that America has 6 times as many whites as we do blacks, they still kill each other more. It seems to me that each race hates themself more than they do other races.

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I love how you conveniently cherry picked that ONE graph that dowsnt take into account blacks only make up 13% of population, yet conveniently ignore all the other ones that use that 13% to paint blacks in even worse light.

What’s even cuter is after doing this, you conveniently declare victory and brush aside all the other official statistics and graphs . Pretty cute, sadly cherry picking the one argument where the low percentage of blacks in the population might work in your favor .

Even then it doesnt work out quite as well as you like.

Take 2019 for example, which is latest full year :

605 blacks and whites were killed by cops
13% of that should be 79 blacks
60% of that should be 363

Without those adjustments, 38% killed are black and 61% killed are white.

You dont think the added 25% blacks killed by cops has anything to do with them committing violent crimes at 11x the average white person, and naturally would have more encounters and thus fatal encounters (when adjusted for population, not hard numbers) ?

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Probably if you drill deeper into the demographics (socioeconomic status, unemployment rate, level of education, etc.) the reasons would start to come out. Up here in Canada it works out roughly to this bottom line:

  • Violent crime rates are inversely correlated with socioeconomic advantage
  • Visible minorities (black etc) are historically disadvantaged in terms of access to higher eduction and better paying jobs
  • This correlates strongly among youth with disillusionment and things like gang membership, which are more likely to lead to violent crime (drug turf wars, etc)

And this is what is being referred to when people talk about systemic, rather than overt, racism. It’s the lack of opportunity and equal access to quality education and meaningful employment, that contributes to the continued cycle of poverty that drives violent crime.

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