#44

Reading some of these comments makes me really sick.

I can’t decide if some of you just try to be “technical” or are openly racist.

Especially the ones that seem to trivialize racism or murder.

I’m not blind but I had thought otherwise especially from members of the Borderlands community, which has been the most “open” game/-series since the first one.

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#45

Oh and btw before anyone pulls the “white privilege” card against me, I’m not white. In fact I’m a muslim Arab and have lived here well before 9/11. Had my share of racist attacks during and after that event , including a particularly bad one from a Mexcian guy and a police officer who stopped me for a broken tail light.

Know what I got from those nasty encounters?

Nothing. I got absolutely nothing. There are bad people in the world, that’s pretty much it.

I didn’t feel oppressed. Didnt go online fishing for sympathy. Didnt ask the white man for more free ****. I went about my life as if nothing changed.

Also where I grew up, we had a minority of black Nubians . They are blacker than the blackest person here in the United States will ever hope to be.

Know what they are known for over there ?

Honesty and character. There are countless sayings over there about how you can leave your daughter and life savings with a Nubian without knowing tioer name and trust they will be returned to you as you left them.

Compare that to some blacks here in America and you quickly realize that people are drawn to kind, respectful, good people of all races and backgrounds

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#47

Sure poverty leads to crime, but how much more aid do we (collectively, not just whites) Have to keep giving blacks for them to take the ball and run with it?

Affirmative action isnt helping
Diversity hire and silicon valley corporations isnt helping
A plethora or social services programs aimed specifically at blacks , billions of dollars , isnt working
Both political parties actively courting “the black vote” to stay relevant isnt working
Extemely generous welfare programs that is 75% used by blacks isnt helping

I mean… what else can we do ? There is only so much a hard working man like me who also has his struggles in life like all of us do, is willing to keep giving , and I don’t think its racist to ask when will we see them meeting us halfway?

At what point do we stop and say maybe, just maybe , its black culture that fetishezes gangs and cop killings and hustling is to blame ? Where if your a black kid doing good in school your peers make fun of you for being "too white "

Self accountability goes much further than self victimization IMO

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#48

Why was post flagged?

Honestly ? Wtf??

@VaultHunter101 I usually dont care but for this one I’d love to know. I was directly addressing the artcile someone else posted. What did I say that is against community guidelines ? I’m flabbergasted in this case

#49

Where in my post did I specify that I am directly talking about you?

I also didn’t called anyone out being a racist I said that some posts seem to indicate racist “tendencies”.

Also opponents, really? We are just people trying to discuss things nowhere did I try to convince you that my World views are the right ones and yours are wrong.

But I thing we can agree that racism is bad no matter against which people.

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#50

Why don’t you ask those in the black community themselves what would help?

I can tell you that where I am, companies and organizations are moving towards different screening and interview practices that aren’t affirmative action or similar, but do provide more equitable treatment of all applicants.

For the rest - I’m not familiar enough with US systems to judge what should or should not be done, or whether what’s being done is balanced, fair, or effective. I do think it’s far too easy to pass judgement on others when you haven’t had to walk in their shoes, though. The current situation didn’t just suddenly happen - it’s been brewing for decades.

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#51

But you should know what more is needed though, because frankly both you and me will ultimately foot that bill, whatever it comes out to be.

It’s a fair question to ask and last night I did ask my sister in law (who is black) that same question

Her response was to have at least 40% of all hires be black, regardless if they are more qualified or not.

I’m not kidding you. She said that with a straight face, and I cant even begin to describe just many things are wrong with that.

The founder of BLM also went on tv a few days ago and said blacks want an apology and arrests in the case if Floyd… days after all 4 officers were charged and after a week of non stop apologizing from literally everyone not named Trump

#52

Btw I’m starting to see many of most posts getting flagged. This is a pattern I’ve seen before where if i have unpopular opinions I get most of my posts suddenly flagged and then I get suspended. Meanwhile People who say I cant read and find ways to insult my using links dont even get a slap on the wrist

I don’t play BL3 much anymore but I still don’t want that tactic used against me. If you want me to delete all my posts and stop responding I can

#53

Actually, the Bureau Of Justice Statistics confirms that in part. Blacks and Whites mostly commit crimes intraracial (70 % and 62 % in 2018) while Hispanics and Asians (24 %) don’t.

Actually I picked the graph that wasn’t a meme, but a statistic that didn’t start with the conclusion readily presented.

That’s what I meant with a poverty problem.

I declared victory? Uhm, actually no. I don’t debate that most black crime victims are victims of crimes commited by blacks (see above, BJS), since the numbers are there.

But I do state that this is another problem than the question if blacks are more likely to be killed by the police.

Yes, that’s me. Snarks ‘R’ Us.

But:

Since you replied to me directly I reread my posts and, frankly, that is not what I wrote. So kindly check if you’re adressing the right person here.

Excuse me, but I wasn’t the one talking about stooping to the level of their ‘opponents’, since this isn’t a who will ‘win’ discussion.

Apart from that, yes, calling the DNC communist and going on to proudly claim posting ‘hard facts’ is not convincing to me. Sorry, but I grew up in a land divided into a socialist and a democratic part, my wife spent half her life under communist rule.

You may not believe me, sure, but I guarantee that even the Dem party isn’t even close to a communist reality as I know it, no matter how often that is repeated in the news. But of course you’re free to ignore these facts.

Edit: Just in case you wonder, I tend to discuss and not throw flags, so I have no idea who flagged those posts.

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#55

You seem to have missed my post, @evenflow80. I’ll try and continue regardless.

You tell people to go to Google and type in “black crime statistics”. This is a poor recommendation, and one I think affects the sources you choose. Some are screenshots from social media (which if we’re accepting as fair testimony, that’s great - buckle up though, I have tons!), none have verified sources (one chart says the OECD, WHO and CDC, but fails to break down which statistics came from where), and as other posters have said (and VaultHunter101 has made the argument for) they all discount the social (and economic) factors that contribute to violence.

You talk about some of these measures that apparently black demographics in the US aren’t taking advantage of. How is Silicon Valley meant to help in downtown LA? Or in New York? How does affirmative action help when unemployment is a huge factor (and was prior to the Covid-19 pandemic)?

Every demographic benefits from social services and billions of dollars of investment. This is again, the same post I made previously, where I ask you for sources for these claims. You don’t like your sources being questioned though, so, I don’t know.

You are not giving this money personally. Taxes you pay, (nearly) everybody pays. If you want to talk about taxation, shall we talk about tax-dodging? About companies like Amazon? Let’s be honest. Any amount of money you’re worried about investing in allegedly-failing social support programs could be solved in an instant if these giant corporations were taxed to even a small percentage of what you’re taxed.

You’re concerned that support programs aren’t solving the problem. Maybe the issue isn’t social support programs, but perhaps helping break people out of the violence -> incarceration loop that the US has monetised with private prisons? There are plenty of things to debate here that don’t involve assuming black people in the US are somehow the cause of most / all of their own problems in life.

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#56

You know I wanted to be helpful and started responding to direct links for each and every one of my graphs I posted but then realized you’re just making me do all the work that if you really cared , could just as easily Google yourself and see it. You just wanted me to do the work for you. Forget the y graphs i posted , the last 3 have DIRECT links on them and frankly they are the most important anyways .

I’m reading your post and genuinely trying to understand . Sure you can argue that diversity Hires in silicon valley doesn’t help someone in Chicago, but it’s still a point of an advantage blacks have over whites that is there to use for that that chose to do so. Those companies are desperate to fill their black quotas . My company is a big defense contractor in San diego and a couple of months ago we had an HR meeting where they announced hiring manager should give more weight to blacks and women .

Affirmarice action is universal , and again an example of an advantage blacks have that whites dont .

But since you are blaming black poverty and violence on everyone BUT blacks , can you name me one county, city , or town anywhere in the world where its predominantly black yet considered a good place to live ?

I just csnt believe it’s a coincidence that wherever there’s a black majority, there’s also record crime and record poverty and record violence.

And your completely wrong arguing that we all equally pay taxes, blacks receive way more in welfare benefits than any other race , so its inaccurate to say we all equally pay taxes. We dont . Some of us foot the bill more than others. This is more of a poor vs rich thing and not a race issue .

I dont know are you black ? If so can I get your honest opinion, using MEASURABLE metrics , on what we can give blacks to finally make them happy ?

Please dont say vague things like " end all racism " . I dont know what that means or how to measure progress on that. Something tangible we can measure.

#57

Hi! My name is Mickity, and while I do not play your little Borderlands game (Brothers in Arms, baby!), I do tend to dabble a bit in the Politics thread. Like, for the past 15+ years now. Oh yes - I’m THAT guy.

My one and only contribution to this thread is that maybe you kids should try being less ■■■■■■ to one another? I mean, if you’re a complete and total DICK, whose mind are you going to change?

…Or maybe I’m fundamentally misunderstanding the point of internet politics. :man_shrugging:

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#58

top-of-the-post-edit - yeesh, this got longer than I expected. I thought the forum software would shrink the quote block as well. My bad, hope folks read it through to the end.

I explained why “just Googling it” isn’t helpful enough. Do you know that Google weights search results according to your history (and a variety of other factors, notably including SEO, which doesn’t exactly have the greatest correlation with accuracy)? It’s not always helpful, especially for discussions like this one.

That said, it took several posts to convince you to post the graphs you did, so it is what it is. If you don’t want to provide citations or supporting evidence, I can’t force you.

Let’s talk about diversity as a concept. The push for diversity in the workplace is a reaction to the existing status quo that there isn’t a real representation of real-world population demographics in specific (popular examples include, but aren’t limited to, STEM companies). They don’t exist by themselves. It’s not some automatic advantage black folks have over white folks - it exists as a reaction to the fact that white people disproportionately fill job roles due to a variety of conscious and subconscious biases (in that STEM in particular is driven by wealth, and that tends to be concentrated in white dudes). It doesn’t just affect black people as a demographic, it tends to affect all non-white demographics because, for at least most of the Western world, white folks are seen as the “default” and have the innate advantages mentioned above.

Affirmative action has a legal background, and operates in a different way. This is a pretty good comparison. Note the mention of “qualified” in the descriptor. It’s not just “hire someone because of their skin”, or “promote someone because of their gender”. This would not be affirmative action. It would be performative, at best. Which means your problem here isn’t actually with affirmative action. It’s with companies filling up a quota without actually working to undo the discrimation that leads to job role inequality in the first place.

You can believe or disbelieve whatever you want - that’s your belief. In my experience, a strongly-held belief is difficult to change. But that doesn’t make it any more than an opinion. I don’t really want to touch the rest of your paragraphs relating to that because I find the assumptions they make distasteful (to say the least).

I want to conclude by talking about welfare. You’ve provided no sources for this claim about black people benefitting “way more” from welfare, but I’ll do my best.

This is an old read, but one that highlights that most minorities (if not all) benefit from welfare in similar ways, and that black demographics are not the exception.

Here’s a more recent read about the stereotype of assuming black people have a greater reliance on / benefit from more welfare compared other demographics. It links to the full piece at the end of the (short) page.

So no, I can’t agree with your claim that black people in the US benefit disproportionately from welfare.

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#59

5,000 black.men exhonerated fromviolent crimes by dna.

Post mortem so theyre not considered exhonerated

There was a massive showing in texas overtime of over 500 black men alone in that state could have been exhonerated from dna alone.

I see some high horse sick people in here who are just careful racist.

For hundreds of years ppl been conditioned to hate black ppl and treat them less… Even if ur not black or white uve fallen into the mold and conditioning.

I remember watching asian ppl say they think black ppl are bad because of usa movies ina indepth look from Asian boss.

Cocaine cowboys shows 1 thing our own government made the moves to push thug life and thug culture.

They did everything possible to destroy the hippie peace movements and divide us. Its worked.

Yeah ur gonna have alot of criminals when society already things ur guilty for existing for being born a certain skin color. On paper oppurtunities are there. But its not acessible without ppl tho show how.
Years of racism towards the black community has warped ppl from Depression.

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#60

Violence is the only reason the media gave any protest Coverage. Ppl protested for yrs 0 media. Its only until u disrupt some yuppies from getting their soy mocha choca esspresso decaf nutella low fat frapalattechino, and walkn their vegan gender nuetral dog.

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#61

So the bulk of your argument is that people are inherently/subconsciously racist against blacks and that’s why things like Affirmative Action and Diveristy hiring is just an equalizer and not special treatment . I find that pretty distasteful but unlike you I’ll still address it, but using a method you’re very fond of:

Can you please provide citations that prove using numbers and facts that this is the case? And it has nothing to do with actual ability or education or experience in a specific field ?

Because making a blanket statement like "most people are subconsciously racist against blacks " sounds like cop out and frankly hypocritical given your dismissal of my graphs including the ones that have direct source links on them.

Its also offensive and ironically racist since you’re basically saying most people are racist.

#62

(And links therein)

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=racial+and+gender+bias+in+faculty+hiring&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=unconscious+racial+bias+research&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Unconscious racial (and gender) bias is a thing. It’s extremely widespread and most of the time none of us are aware that we are engaging in it.

Most if not all of the argument is not about overt racism, but the decidedly trickier combination of unconscious bias and the fact that our societal structures (education, healthcare, hiring practices, and a bunch more) work to actively discriminate against visible minorities whether we mean to or not.

5 Likes
#65

EDIT: IM RESPONDING TO WRONG PERSON DISREGARD

Ok.

So let me keep it simple : what do you suggest we can do, realistically and something that we can tangibly track progress against, to make black people feel like they aren’t oppressed or victimized ?

Serious honest question here since I dont think arguing back and forth is going to change either of our opinions. We just have fundamentally different views on self victimization vs self accountability. I can argue that gangster culture and rap songs about killing cops has at least something to do with holding blacks back , but you do you i guess.

#66

A lot of racism, nevermind against black folks, can be subconscious. Racism against Hispanic folks, Eastern Europeans, anyone who isn’t the standard default Western dude. Sexism, you name it. All the types of discrimination in thie world.

I can’t take what you’re asking in good faith anymore. I provided a bunch of links, and you then demanded more evidence for more parts of my post (that were thankfully provided by another poster). At no point have you provided comparable evidence for anything you’ve said. You’re making me do far more work than you’re investing into this thread, and there’s no benefit to it unfortunately. There’s very little respect of the arguments I’m making.

There’s nothing I can say that will progress this. You want your opinions, and no amount of proffered evidence will even loosen them slightly. You refuse to provide any of your own, instead deferring to screenshots which have in various cases been proven misleading already. There’s nothing to argue with except your opinion. And I can’t do that, because it’s an opinion.

#67

EDIT: I JUST REALIZED I REPONDED TO WRONG PERSON. THIS QUESTION BELOW WAS MEANT TO GO TO GORBLES

Again you’re just insulting me and avoiding my simple question:

What can we offer black people that will make them not feel oppressed by white people?

I can’t make it simpler than that. Forget our back and forth, only request I make If you answer that make it grounded in reality and something tangible we can track metrics against, i.e "end racism and discrimination " isnt a metric we can subjectively measure and track

I dont need a 30 page dissertation, a simple paragraph would suffice

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