The anointment reroll cost is too high and save scumming

Now hear me out

I understand how powerful this is but it doesn’t work within the very framework design of this game.

This games systems by design promote - and expect - save scumming. Save scumming, by any means is not an enjoyable experience that benefits the player.

We save scum to respawn bossses (quit to menu is save scumming), we scum to dupe, and now we scum to reroll anoints. By this games very design it promotes scumming - and that isn’t good. There’s nothing fun about quitting to the menu to respawn a boss or uploading and downloading saves to dupe items. You should never have any system in your game that encourages or otherwise forces the player out of the game. This isn’t limited to just save scumming but also to LFG, matchmaking, theorycrafting etc. All of these systems should be well defined and accessible within a game and BL misses the mark on all of them. LFG and matchmaking is non existent, save scumming is the norm, theorycrafting is left to third parties to break down anointments and skills and effects that don’t do what they say they do and are poorly worded

These things need to be addressed with systems that encourage the player not to scum and encourage the player to… actually play the game

The new raid boss for example can be respawned - albeit at far too high of a cost - which has once again led to exploits - of only killing one and then fast travelling back.

Now onto the eridium machine. Simply put, the cost is too high and because of that it promotes scumming. If we can’t stop scumming (we can’t) we can at least encourage against it.

In Monster Hunter World exists a very similar system where you would approach an NPC for some randomly rolled items - if you didn’t like what you got - you’d simply save scum.

Eventually they brought in a mechanic that prevents this by forcing the player to have a set outcome every time they roll - until they complete another activity.

I believe BL3 needs this system for the eridium machine - HOWEVER - before you lose your minds - the cost needs to be reduced from 250 to 50

I think 50 is a fair cost. I think it’s an inconsequential enough amount as to not encourage scumming. It’s about one kill at Ruiner which is about the same amount of time it would take a player on average to quit to the main menu and back. It’s an inconsequential enough amount of eridium to discourage save scumming while still holding value.

Scumming is still possible and encouraged like this - if the pool is way too diluted so that may need to be adjusted as well.

Ultimately what needs to be done is a balance must be struck that doesn’t encourage the player to save scum but is also fair and isn’t going to require a player to spend 20000 eridium

Now onto another thing I mentioned. Duping. Why can we not simply dupe in game for cost of a currency? 500 eridium? Why doesn’t every boss have a respawn button (that doesn’t cost 500 eridium)?

Systems need to be designed in a way that doesn’t encourage scumming because if your system encourages scumming - it’s not a good system

7 Likes

i dont think its a good solution to lower prices to a point where people just wont make the effort to close and restart the game rather than farming more of the resource
the price seems fair to me and i didnt even think about dashboard rolling it
maybe just make the game auto save before you can even see the outcome
about savegame manipulating
if people are going that far instead of playing the game i really cant say anything much about it

1 Like

Some people have reported spending upwards of 20-30k trying to get the anoint they want. That shouldn’t happen.

I don’t just want anti save scumming, I want people to not feel the need to save scum. I don’t think the system is fair and balanced if people are feeling the need to do that.

Auto saving before each roll could be a good idea in theory but still doesn’t prevent cloud saves or just copy pasting your old save back in. I don’t think the price is quite right. Maybe 50 is too low but 250 is definitely too high. Especially so when we have things like the new raid boss demanding Eridium. Auto saving still won’t prevent scumming.

The only way to really prevent scumming is to not encourage it in the first place

I think a lower cost could be justified and balanced with more sources to spend Eridium on. So we already have the raid boss now, if we had say a machine for duping and another for maybe even rerolling certain weapon parts - I think that could make a much more active, interesting and rewarding economy.

I don’t think that choosing between playing content (new boss) and rerolling an anointment is a fun experience.

I think if you have a system where the vast majority of people are exploiting and scumming, that’s not so much a problem with the people exploiting and scumming but it’s a badly designed system that is encouraging it.

You can have badly designed systems that don’t allow scumming too - and those just aren’t fun. Hard heavy grinds taking months or even years in old MMOs - that isn’t fun.

Balance is the key to everything.

2 Likes

well, i long ago suggested just a straight crafting system where you can just swap an anointment over by destroying another weapon

5 Likes

Id like to see that as well, but if it were crafting I’d like it expanded upon to cover weapon parts and elements as well.

I wonder if the 250 eridium cost could be better accepted if eridium drops were more normalized across bosses

Like today I was farming brick and mordei and it’s like 10 eridium per kill compared to Ruiner dropping like 50. I don’t think having to farm Ruiner or any other boss simply because they drop more eridium is good - when the machine is meant to be supplementary to the grind.

250 is a bit high that I agree, but it helped me a lot now to get some of the new weapons with Urad for my Moze.
It was definitely better than having to farm for who knows how long with my usual luck.
For example after the previous lvl cap increase it took me like 70 Flipper drops to get it.

Before the machine I had ~70k Eridium on my Amara and around 35k on my Moze, I never really farmed Eridium so thats pretty much all I had after ~800+ hours played in the game since the relase day.
Amara is down to 35k and Moze is ~25k since I mainly rolled on Amara.

Problem is that now instead of farming for the specific Anoint I will have to farm Eridium instead.

As for the topic of save manipulating and dupes, thats entirely a player choice.
Personally I never did that and all of my gear is legit solo found by me, doing otherwise would ruin the game for me. ‘I did play MMOs for a long time and various ARPGs so farming stuff is the norm for me’

What others do in their own singleplayer gaming time is not my business nor affects me.

3 Likes

Exactly!
I mean, it is possible as all PC players have access to every item available through 3rd party means, can dupe entire characters with their progression and can rebuild their build in minutes, have unlimited amounts of ingame currencies. All the while, console players need to walk through the game time and time again to try a new build on their existing class and then have to farm everything they need for that build. Again.

I understand that Gbx thinks: Oh, he wants that, he is going to play the entire game once more, farm everything up once more and that’s replayability.
And for some this might be true. But I’ve seen a lot of players in here that consider this loop time-wasting. I, myself, would very much rather play the game with the gear I need/want to try then farm for that stuff - just because my time is limited. And if I use that limited time to farm (and not get it), I cannot use it to play the build I want to play. The consequence is frustration and me leaving the game.

Heck, apart from the WD nerf, everything in DLC6 sounds great. Still I am not playing because … idk, something seems off. And I’m a harcore BL veteran that still buys anything and everything from Gbx blindly if it has that franchises logo on it.

Duping and other save file manipulation is entirely doable on console. It may be time consuming and you can’t dupe entire characters but it is a usable mechanic. If I find a decent item and want to have a copy on multiple characters I will absolutely dupe it.

Or worse, spending 20-30k, or ALL their eredium and not getting the anoint they want. Which happened to me. So now my choice is to farm bosses, or farm for eredium. I just can’t do either right now. I’m suffering grind exhaustion.

The anoint machine didn’t solve the problem with anoints, it only revealed how bad it is. The pool is simply too diluted.

3 Likes

I’ve moved on to Outriders, it has this same sort of crafting system you describe, similar to Diablo. It’s a much more fun game in my opinion.

You can do that but then you have to reduce the drop rates even further because RNG will almost not exist anymore and then relics and coms will be unicorns

Ikr
It works very well and is a lot of fun :smiley:

1 Like

I know. I keep thinking as I’m playing ‘this is what Borderlands 3 could have been’ and it makes me sad on the huge missed opportunity there. Plus all the interplay of the mods, armor sets and abilities in Outriders just highlights how 1 dimensional B3 plays.

wel, you do have pros on both sides
outriders gameplay is pretty much an arcade game: enter an area, clear the area, enter the next area…borderlands is way more open world and sandbox but yea, it could have some of the build crafting elements

1 Like

I get that, but I wouldnt call B3 open world at all. It’s pretty much the same thing, B3 just has a more updated UI and level design. B3 you travel to Athenas, enemies spawn and you clear them - I’d say the big difference is that in Outriders you have to replay quests to get enemies to respawn, generally.

Alot of elements of Outriders level design feel very dated, and the fast travel/loading etc, however, I was more referring to the actual builds and gameplay being far ahead.

Not to mention, the endgame expeditions are awesome and a real challenge (solo at least). Currently pushing my Devastator to CT12. The feeling of accomplishment of unlocking a new tier is legit

borderlands isnt open world
but more open world
in outriders you cant exit an area while you have an active quest
its 100% instanced
that makes you feel very restricted and not “free” in this world

Yea, like I said, I think alot of the design is dated, but the core is much more enjoyable. To me at least haha

it is fun
but i gets old kinda fast because its like a…“character crafter” without an actual game to enjoy your character in after the main story ends

Ha that’s what the endgame is about. In my opinion, the endgame expeditions are light years ahead of borderlands. Gives you a clear goal and a challenge and you actually have to clear a Tier before moving up.

I also don’t expect it to be something you play indefinitely - for me, I’ll probably do all 4 classes, clear the Eye and then prob be done. However, if my Dev is any indication, only at level 47 and been playing for 60 hrs so I’ll get my playtime for sure haha

It is entirely player choice but it’s up to the developer to create a system that is enjoyable for the player

If a player feels punished because the system is too harsh - they will find ways around it. Right now the vast majority of this community performs scumming or exploits of at least some kind. That shows an inherit design problem. This is what’s called punishing vs challenging. Dark souls is the best example of this as the game borderlines on punishing but is so well done that it is a challenging experience rather than punishing. It is rewarding in its challenge.

It’s also up to the developer to protect the player from themselves. People will often - no matter what - take the path of least resistance - even if that path is even subtly less resistant. It’s just human nature.

So people will use the most OP things, people will take the fastest route of travel etc. So for example if you have a beautiful overworld that is completely ignored and has a million instant teleport locations across it (FFXIV) your players miss out on exploring this beautiful world you’ve created - due simply to their own nature - however this is balanced by at least forcing them to explore it once by requiring completion of the main story that goes through all these locations. It’s a balanced experience that strives to balance convenience with player experience

Or another example… you wouldn’t put a weapon in a game that can insta kill every enemy, boss etc - because it’s detrimental to the players experience of the game. It allows the path of least resistance but it is simply not fun and it’s up to the developer to create and shape these experiences for the player.

I had a modded gun given to me. I threw it away because it was too powerful and I knew if I abused it - it would be detrimental to my experience.

We do have guns capable of virtually one shotting bosses but that isn’t due to sheer numbers on a weapon - that’s due to build interactions and theory crafting. It’s a rewarding and positive experience.

So ultimately what needs to be done is balanced systems need to be created that don’t encourage exploits and scumming. Even if it is a “personal choice” a player shouldn’t feel compelled to make that choice.

Like killing only Hermi at the raid so you can teleport back. The only reason that’s happening is because the eridium cost is too high.

Duping items through scumming is not a rewarding experience but duping items through perhaps a crafting station or a quest or god knows what - so long as it’s balanced - that would alleviate this problem partially and overall create a better gameplay experience for the player

This isn’t my personal opinion either, this is all standard design philosophy throughout the games industry. You can learn all about it on YouTube and blogs from professional developers

3 Likes