The best Unkempt Harold is not DPUH

Borderlands 2 BL2 General Discussion
#9

dpuh does 600863 on the card
hard harold does 685491
(for testing, all parts are the same except accessory)

the dpuh gets 4 shots at 12
the hard gets 7 shots at 6

damage per shot for the dpuh is 12 * 600863 = 7.2e6
the damage for the hard 4.1e6

damage per magazine 7.2e6 * 4 = 28e6
for the hard: 4.1e6 * 7 = 28e6

it takes me about 0.8 seconds to empty the hard and 0.5 seconds to empty the double. the hard has a reload speed of 2.3 and the dpuh has a reload of 2.9. hard total time taken is 2.3 + 0.8 = 3.1 while the dpuh would have 2.9 + 0.5 = 3.4.

dpuh damage per mag/per time = 28.8e6 / 3.4 = 84.8e6
hard damage per mag/per time = 28.8e6 / 3.1 = 92.9e6

it’s important to remember, however, that the dpuh cost more ammo. so at even casual shooting speeds, the DPUH does 9% less damage for 14% more ammo cost.

without accounting for accuracy, the dpuh is a fairly terrible weapon compared to the hard. i’m sure people with faster trigger fingers could shoot the hard much faster. at faster shooting speeds, the hard will massively win out.

the caveat is that using animation cancels to overcome fire rate means that the weapon will not automatically reload and the number of shots will have to be calculated to allow for efficient reload times.

#10

Looks like you used a Jakobs grip. What about a matching grip for the mag/reload bonus?

#11

Not going to factor in time between Money Shots, or a Zero who uses the DPUH’s first shot out of Deception? Skills change the situation considerably, and as @Ronnie_Rayburn says, burst is a thing.

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#12

Formula is from the numbers on the card:
Damage * Accuracy * Fire Rate * (Mag Size / Rounds per shot) * Element Dmg if any * Element Chance if any / Reload Speed
DPUH: 30290 * .8 * 1.6 * 4.67 / 2.3 = 78722.4
Crammed: 16227 * .893 * 2 * 9.33 / 2.5 = 108158.7

Crammed has better accuracy by 9.3%, better fire rate by .4 second, and twice the mag.
DPUH has double damage per trigger and .2 second faster reload.

#13

I see you are factoring accuracy. In practice, UH will either hit or miss depending on player skill and enemy type, not accuracy, regardless of accessory, thanks to its unique spread pattern. The number of projectiles missing or hitting will be quite similar either.

#14

Also that’s a weird formula.

Here’s what I found when factoring accuracy:

DPUH: 3029050.8/((5/1.6)+2.3) is around 22K DPS
Crammed UH: 16227100. 893/((10/2)+2.5) is around 19K DPS

DPUH still wins in one mag cycle DPS.

#15

You’re not using the numbers here, and that reload time seems very different.

#16

the unkempt harold is a win regardless of prefix. personally i like the intense harold.

#17

great catch, apparently the parts weren’t the same, i wasn’t looking close enough. the DPUH with all matching torgue is

592400
but also, i realized my axton had some skills adding bonuses. my apologies, i figured axton would be a good test only because he was the only one holding one.
the hard is actually 685491 and has 7 shots. the mag size is 20 stock, at 3 each, the seventh shot only uses 2 shots. i reset my skills on gaige to prevent any weirdness.
the dpuh has 5 shots. the last shot only using 4 rounds. this will actually be important, interestingly, since i think 2 shots is still enough to fuel the full 6 pellets.

so the DPUH has 592400 and fires 12 pellets = 7.1 M per shot
the hard does 685491 and fires 6 = 4.1 M per shot
the DPUH has 5 shots * 7.1 = 35.5 M per mag
and the hard has 7 * 4.1 = 28.8 M per mag

originally, my fire rate was 0.5 seconds for 4 shots and 0.8 seconds for 7. this intuitively makes sense. however, upon closer inspection, the 0.5 estimate means i’m taking 0.125 seconds per shot and the 0.114 seconds for the other - which is not fair, so i’ll assume here that it takes me a perfect 0.125 seconds per shot, for every shot.

so the 5 shots for the dpuh would take: .625 seconds
the 7 shots for hard would take: .875

damage per second is consequently
dpuh: 35.5 M / (.625 + 2.3) = 12.1 M / mag
hard: 28.8 M / ( 0.875 + 2.3) = 9.06 M / mag
with same parts, they both have the same reload

the DPUH is doing 34% more damage per mag for 40% more ammo. i only rounded because it was convenient to type, i actually kept 12 sig figs.

if it’s assumed that the ratio of shots is always 7:5, there is no speed at which the hard will overtake the DPUH. of the 1035 max pistol ammo, the DPUH will lose 6% (62 rounds). for the astute, it may be obvious that 5 shots requires 3 clicks and 7 shots requires 4 clicks. this ratio is 0.75. however, the ratio of 5:7 is very close 0.71. at this point, i feel like it’s close enough that it’s irrelevant. and furthermore, the 5:7 ratio is representative for the people who only use the shoot button to shoot.

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#18

DPUH: 3029050.8/((5/1.6)+2.3) is around 22K DPS
Crammed UH: 16227100. 893/((10/2)+2.5) is around 19K DPS

Is this a commonly accepted formula for DPS? Doesn’t it render mag size irrelevant since it’s used both as numerator and denominator?

One thing I didn’t realize was that with 4 rounds left in a dpuh mag you still get a shot with full damage/pellets. Thanks for that nothng.

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#19

As I said even though I found it myself, I also found the community has been using the same formula even earlier. DPS is rarely questioned these days since a lot of things have been figured out now about the game.

It’s not about which is a numerator and which is denominator, it’s about where to put the numbers. I used to use a similar formula before finding it’s a bit off in calculations, and improved it, only to find this exact formula I use for now.

I also have a formula for calculating DPS over the whole ammo reserve, but it’s ineffective since in BL2, ammo is rarely an issue. In raids it’s important though, especially like vs Hyperius or Vorac where there are no ammo source. As it’s just some of the raids, it’s still a rare occasion.

edit: the basic idea is

DPS in one reload cycle = damage of whole mag / time to unload all round + reload time

#20

"DPS in one reload cycle = damage of whole mag / time to unload all round + reload time"
You’re making me think about what we mean by Damage Per Second. I think you’re right to include reload time, but I think that should be added to total time for the full cycle. Then the time where damage occurs should be a percentage of total time.
So total time to complete the cycle is 5 shots / 1.6 shots per second + 2.3 seconds for reload = 5.425. 58% of that time is for shooting.
For the crammed it’s 10 shots/2 shots per second + 2.5 seconds = 7.5. 67% of the time is shooting.
Maybe we could call this aggregate damage per second. I see your point we ignore accuracy since this thing in any incarnation is nearly a blunderbuss. So we have this simple formula:

Damage * FireRate * %of time damage occurs.
DPUH: 30290 * 1.6 * .58 = 28109
Crammed: 16227 * 2 * .67 = 21636

I have to agree you’re right in regards to a simple dps calculation. I still find a Crammed UH more survivable with a gunzerker gunzerking using a moxxi weapon off-hand since putting no damage downfield for a longer time is more of a liability. This isn’t quite the same thing as that relative index comparison number I was doing.

I’m sticking with my weird formula. It’s just all the numbers on the cards unweighted. Even though many don’t consider accuracy, including it makes a pretty good formula for just about any weapon. It also seems to account for that reload downtime in a way I hadn’t thought about before.

#21

See, you’re getting the same point as I did! I’m glad :slight_smile:

#22

Yeah, any UH is a beast itself compared to many.

#23

Note that Damage per Second is not the same thing as Damage over Time. The latter would be a measure of the entire mag + reload cycle.
That’s Damage * Fired Rounds per mag * the portion of the cycle when shooting applies.
DPUH: 30290 * 5 * .58 = 87841
Crammed: 16227 * 10 * .67 = 108180

This nearly amounts to the point I’ve been trying to make all along, though we see the DPUH fares better than when accuracy and fire rate are directly considered.

Do we have a better way to say ‘when shooting applies’? Violence per Cycle? Killing Increment? I’m looking for something concise but explanatory before it becomes an acronym.

#24

For me one of the advantages of the DPUH is that the two sprays are a good insurance against the gun’s spread / firing pattern. Obviously I try to use the gun when the pattern is appropriate, but there’s always the possibility that projectiles will miss, especially when you’re not close enough to count the enemy’s nose hairs… The double pattern means that you hit hard even if some go wide. Useful in chaotic situations.

I don’t play much Salvador but my Krieg makes good use of it, especially in the time between releasing the beast. Getting out as many projectiles as possible in that sometimes short window is all-important.

Does the x2 accessory tend to lower the fire rate?

Forgive the absence of maths.

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#25

Yes, the x2 reduces fire rate on any pistol. By doubling damage it also reduces every other stat on a pistol’s card except usually mag.

Another troublesome issue with a DPUH especially for a Gunzerker is that you’ll run out of ammo, even with a Hoarder class mod.

I can see how an Unkempt Harold in general is a boon for Krieg, particularly on a mania build.

#26

Yes, when I thought of Sal using the DPUH I did think ammo would be a problem. I don’t usually have it as a difficulty with Krieg, because I use it to complement melee / bloodsplosion. I do sometimes use it with Maya but along with other weapons (as my Maya is very meticulous about opening every ammo box :angel:)

#27

With its low fire-rate and high damage output per shot you only run out of ammo if you either don’t gunzerk or simple don’t stop firing even if there are no enemies on the screen, if I recall correctly the double-saturn fight can be done with a grog+dpuh while using a leg. gunzerker com.

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#28

Nice! Like I say I have very little experience with Sal. I was thinking about making a post to garner tips on playing him actually. I do know players who don’t like to over-rely on the DPUH.