The Coronavirus/COVID-19 Thread

General Discussion Off-Topic
#716

From your article posted:

The Ministry of Health says 905 of Sunday’s cases involve unvaccinated people, 142 involve partially vaccinated people, 2,977 involve fully vaccinated people and 153 involve people with unknown vaccination status.

Over the past several months, unvaccinated people, who currently represent about 18 per cent of Ontario’s population, have been significantly overrepresented in daily case counts but today, those individuals only account for about 21 per of all new infections.

This looks to me that natural immunity is a good thing and that herd immunity is the real goal to get beyond these strains.

Edit:

A thought.

In London, there are approximately 200 admissions per day now with tested of Omicron. But, only 1/2 are there for Omicron. The other 1/2 just tested positive and could be there for instance…car accident.

So all these #s are fuzzy.

Again, from your article:

While case counts have risen dramatically in the province, there has not yet been a corresponding spike in intensive care admissions. The province says there are currently 159 COVID-19 patients receiving treatment in the ICU, up one from last Sunday.

#717

Don’t know about London. For the Ontario numbers, that switch from primarily unvaccinated to breakthrough is what you’d expect given the spread. Before they changed the age range to include 5-11, Ontario was closing in on 90% with at least one dose 85% fully vaccinated, so the pool of unvaccinated 12+ was really quite small.

What’s really striking here is the rate at which the numbers have spiked. Take a look at the graph here:

And then remember that because with omicron the symptoms can be seasonal cold-level, it is almost certainly going under-tested so it’s even more widespread in the community. Which gives pause when you remember that ICU admissions always lag daily case counts.

Me, I’m just going to stay home for a few days…’

Edit to add, Christmas shopping gift ideas!

(Updated to reflect most recent information and changes in availability)

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#718

So, fully vaccinated is not 2 shots anymore. It’s 3 shots.

My son, who is 21 yrs old and in great physical shape, who has gotten Covid and 2 jabs already, has to have the booster to attend classes in college. It’s ■■■■■■■ ridiculous!

Mandates for 3 shots?

#719

If the covid was a breakthrough infection, he might be on the path to superpowers…

Maybe I’m reading too much into “super immunity” though? :radioactive: :spider:

Here, they haven’t yet changed the definition of fully vaccinated to 3 shots, but I suspect it’s on the horizon. They have extended vaccination passports to the spring, and are “looking into” updating for 3 shots. But the booster clinics are still trying to ramp up capacity, so it would be daft to make 3-shots a requirement right now.

#720

Getting covid, then 2 shots isn’t sufficient.

So 2 shots and getting omicron is sufficient.

Getting covid then 2 shots, then getting omicron is more sufficient.

Getting covid, then 2 shots, then getting omicron, then 3rd shot…

Believe the science…who’s science are you to believe?

#721

Well, it would have been, if enough people had got vaccinated to prevent viral spread with associated risk of more virulent mutations…

The science is the science, nothing has really changed there. What we’re seeing in your tally above is the cumulative effects of individual choices summed over multiple countries and ~2 years.

Tl;dr: science is powerless in the face of ignorance, stupidity, or superstition.

2 Likes
#722

It is what it is. But that doesn’t really comment on my questioning on immunity.

When I say sufficient, I mean immunity. Not sufficient for the government.

#723

Maybe because immunity doesn’t mean what we want it to mean?

It’s basically probability-based. Get a virus that mutates rapidly enough (they all do to varying degrees) and, unless you stop it spreading early enough, you’ll get variants with some probability that they won’t be recognized or only partially recognized by your newly informed immune system. Which means your immune response won’t be as robust to that variant.

Unfortunately, this is where the intersection between science and political… dang, can’t think of the word - intersect. If vaccination campaigns had been faster and hit 90%+ earlier, there’s a good possibility we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

The big question is, are people going to double-down or give up? If the latter, I think we’re looking at another year at least of preventable deaths and over-burdened healthcare systems.

Interesting side reading:

Edit to add: that’s why I’ve had booster shots for other diseases decades after initial immunization - the dominant virus/bacteria changed, but only slowly and not as much in the parts targeted by the immune response. Now things are at the point where the initial vaccine is not sufficiently effective against the current dominant strains, so time for a booster with a slightly different structure. If SarsCov2 mutated as slowly as things like measles, mumps, polio, diptheria, etc., we wouldn’t in the whose-counting wave right now. Some of those, the rate of change has basically been tamped down by effective eradication through vaccination; expect new strains to emerge as vaccination rates for childhood diseases drop.

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#724

It’s really pretty great. People wanted to be contrarian and rebel against the system, which created the opportunity for this to get worse, and are now using the worsening to justify further contrarian behavior. Now, I can’t really blame them for not trusting the government, power hungry corrupt lawyers and megalomaniacs, but science is an impartial and objective process of learning that only appears politicized because politicians saw an opportunity to further divide us and keep us from watching what’s really important. You almost have to admire that level of machiavellian parasitism. Does the Covie suck? Absolutely, but I think the real blame to be placed is with ■■■■■■ humans that managed to convince other humans they aren’t ■■■■■■.

Again, my distaste for lawyers is inspired entirely by the low ethics bar set here in Murica. Most legal professionals I’ve interacted with outside this shiny and glittery cesspool of legal gray areas have been good folk.

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#725

Heh, it’s interesting that many seem to expect 100% in just this case.

On what @VaultHunter101 posted on vaccine efficiency vs. mutation, there is an example for mutating viruses that almost everyone has heard of:

The well-known seasonal influenza shot.

(Not to be confused with the influencer shot, which may be well deserved in case of some youtubers, but is regularly illegal).

Not that I’m comfortable with comparing Covid to the flu (that’s been done in bad faith too often), but it’s the common example where no one seems to go: “But I got a jab already last year, why should I get another one?”

So, virus changes, immunity goes down a notch if it changes into a successful way (from virus POV, that is). If it changes in a way that the immune system can easily deal with, that new variant simply gets against the defenses and is never heard of again.

At this point, the question is, what exactly is new about viruses adapting? :man_shrugging:

One of the problems at the moment is that politicians tend to promise that it’ll be over and done with just this shot (or the next one etc.), without ever knowing that for sure and people (especially the self-styled vaccine skeptics) are convinced that anything that doesn’t grant 100% immunity right meow isn’t worth even trying.

Does a jab lower your chance to be hospitalized? Yes. Does it lessen the probability to infect others? Yes.

Does it work all the time every time? No. So it sucks and isn’t worth using…

To be clear, I don’t mean you personally Sun. But it’s an debating line I heard often enough from right-wing politicians and vaccine ‘skeptics’ here. The corona deniers don’t even go for arguments and scream Bill Gates, Soros, microchips instead.

I got the impression that this line is akin to screaming that I won’t use a seatbelt because it doesn’t guarantee 100% that I will survive every conceiveable traffic accident.

Edit:

Say what?!?!

Ah, just read the disclaimer. Carry on, good sir :wink:

4 Likes
#726

Fun fact: when I got mine, the piece of paper I was given gave a bit more information than I usually get. This one was a mix of four separate flu vaccines. It seems that either the influenza folks are expecting a variety of flu viruses to be circulating this year, or they’re hedging their bets as much as possible.

#727

But it’s not mandated. Most healthy (young) people don’t receive a shot as well.

I’m using my son as an example of someone who doesn’t need a 3rd shot.

I have no problem if one who has underlying issues and/or of an elderly age wants the shot. Or anyone who wants the shot…go for it. Don’t force it with mandates.

I think it’s out of control.

Edit:

And my discussion isn’t about if vaccines work or not…just saying.:wink:

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#728

Some of you have seen how badly I flew off the handle recently about this matter, and I kinda want to elaborate on this. I can only talk about what I experience.

I’ve mentioned it several times before that I am all for protecting those who are in serious danger of actually succumbing to this virus, and I stil put an emphasis on that. But the blanket lockdowns,what is now bordering on mandating a third shot, and potentionally introducing a law that bans anyone not vaccinated/cured from everywhere is just too much. When people I am close to get upset that they can’t even come over to visit, regardless that we all live in diffirent country, over these mandates, it just leaves me with no patience left to say the least.

And I am sure there are plenty in a similar situation. Perhaps not on the same terms of loneliness, or maybe more, but it hurts alot too.

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#730

Human nature is all about curiousity, questioning and rebellion. And we are talking about the world here…not just our back yards. Only approximately 58% are vaccinated worldwide.
Just like the vaccines not working 100%, it’s not going away 100% and becoming endemic.

#732

Sorry for the deletions. It’s not an argument that needs to be had, and I don’t want to start anything I’m not willing to follow through on.

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#733

If it cheers you up Paulo, not only do I understand not wanting to deal with the anxiety of having such an argument, I have to control myself not to devolve into a semi-coherent rant about the eidolon of disease anti-vaxxers have built out of conspiracy theories and the grossly incompetent handling of the pandemic in general.

That said as far as I’m aware everyone here is vaccinated, so yes, this is both pointless and anxiety inducing. And yes, you should absolutely imagine me saying that in a frenetically cheerful voice, because what the ■■■■ humanity.

Albeit honestly, looking at the history of peoples response to vaccination we probably should’ve expected this. We didn’t! Probably should’ve though.

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#734

Honestly, it does a bit. Most of what I see is people who want to point fingers everywhere but themselves, screaming the whole time, and then complain about their anxiety. I definitely spend too much time on Twitter, though I avoid all discussions of politics and plague, but I’ve seen protests and fistfights about all of this in the real world, and had someone shout obscenities at me for being masked in the supermarket. I’m a good deal calmer than I was 20 years ago, but I’d be lying if I told you I didn’t want to commit an assault and battery in that moment.

So yes, Temet. That makes me feel better, if only a little.

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#735

So, this is the “anti-vaxxers” fault?

You are mistaken if you think my original “argument “ is about this. It seems that my “argument” took a turn. This was about when compliance becomes out of control.

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#736

I think the problem being referred to is that there are anti vaxxers whose point is “COVID is a made up disease with no real danger being used as a propaganda device.” I have a friend who is anti vax, but takes all the common sense precautions and respects the dangers. If that was how all anti vax folks behaved it would be a less problematic stance, IMO.

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#737

Sorry Sun, to be clear that wasn’t a response to you - it was a minor rant as a response to Paulo deleting his post and the stress of the current situation (to be honest I’m not even clear which of your posts that would’ve been).

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