The Flak over Fl4k and what it cost

Borderlands 3 Borderlands 3 General Discussion
#332

Listen, I believe in your right to that point of view, I just don’t understand why you’d feel so strongly on it. I am not trying to change your mind, but it may be something like this;

In much the same way that if we were to use insulting terms for a fictional character of a certain ethnicity or religious belief, and the members or adherents to those community would see that as a slight on them, people may see it as a way to belittle them by proxy.

Is that the case? Maybe. Am I concerned either way? Nah. If I had a problem with it I’d leave the forum, I definitely wouldn’t be complaining about it. I’ll worry when they write speech restrictions in to law. Again, I am a First guy and I do believe in a privately company’s right to express it.

If you think differently, that’s cool, but come on man, just talk to these nice people. You’ll genuinely realize you guys have a lot in common, it really doesn’t have to be like that.

8 Likes
#333

Ah yes, the mental gymnastics of… separating fiction from reality and realizing fictional characters aren’t people and don’t have the same rights.

#335

Okay then, I’ll bite:

Stop treading on Gearbox’s copyright.

1 Like
#336

As a P.S. to you, I am not trying to demonize you. My inbox is always open if you want a chat, I don’t think you’re a bad guy I just have a belief that you may be wrong on this.

But that is just my point of view, and I respect yours. Let’s just meet on some common ground.

7 Likes
#337

I mean, I ain’t boycotting ■■■■, personally. I’m still buying the game. And I’ve never uttered the word “libtard” until just now when I quoted you. I take no issue with flak being non-binary, I just take issue with trying to control how people refer to flak when it quite literally does not matter what people call flak.

#338

It is for the people who identify with FL4K as being non-binary, not as a robot, nor for FL4K itself, per se.

C’mon, man.

Surely you see this?

I mean, I myself identify as a 100% heterosexual male.

Because I am.

I am totes cool with FL4K being itself.

Why not let others get some rep too?

5 Likes
#342

What does it cost us?

I believe that the answer to this question is simple: We should be focused on character builds and excitement over Borderlands 3. Instead we are focused on gender politics, who might be offended, walking on egg shells, and solving this problem on the Borderlands 3 forum. Wouldn’t it be better if we could just be a community that was all excited about a game where none of us knew or cared about each other’s political leanings?

Why does Borderlands 3 need to insert itself into gender politics??? The cost of this is massive and divisive to the community.

#343

Good question. Here’s what Anthony Burch (lead writer for Borderlands 2) had to say on the subject:

https://www.gearboxsoftware.com/2013/08/inside-the-box-inclusivity/

And I’ll pick a gender neutral example from that for why representation in video games matters: Karima (mayor of Overlook in BL2). I recognize there will be many different opinions on that article - which is very much Anthony Burch’s opinion piece as he makes clear from the outset. But it’s a useful reference point for thoughtful discussion.

7 Likes
#344

I mean, I got a bunch of theorycrafting threads in Amara section if you’re interested.

I’m really psyched about MA + Foe, but I think the biggest damage output is going to include the melee tree just because Jab Cross is stupid good. They nerfed it in the most recent build, but having that much added gun damage at the cost of “punch a guy every 20 seconds” doesn’t seem like a big deal.

My point is all this… points at the above thread … doesn’t take away from any content listed.

Plus it’s absolutely ignorable if you don’t intend on intentionally misgendering someone (fictional or not) repeatedly.

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#345

:rofl:

It’s very much alive, and all for the right reasons.

6 Likes
#346

And they have their rep, someone calling flak “he” does not take their representation away. It causes no more harm than any other gender or sexuality headcanon out there. Someone calling flak “he” does not change the lore or erase how the game itself refers to them.

#347

VautHunter101, thanks for sharing this article.

3 quick thoughts about it:

  1. This is a video game… anyone who pays the money for a copy is “welcome” to play it… why would anyone need to hear “you are welcome here” to spend money on a product?

  2. I hope that the writers for Borderlands 3 had fewer character requirements than Anthony Burch expressed in the article. I hope that they created the best characters possible and didn’t worry about which boxes they checked or failed to check along the way. How exhausting!

  3. I am a huge fan of Borderlands 2, but after reading this article, I’m glad that Anthony Burch moved along.

#348

Hmm, I see your point but I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Follow me on this for a moment, because I am genuinely interested in seeing if we can reach some common ground, and I’d like to hear your take on the following.

Putting politics aside.

Let’s go back, way back to the Iliad.

There are debates as to whether the relationship between Patroclus and Achilles was one of lovers. For years the debate went, if they loved each other as friends, then Achilles revenge on Hector was more founded since he sought a blood feud for his comrade. The reverse was if they were lovers, Achilles was just being petty because he lost a sexual object, and thought that it was another expression of his ego like when Agamemnon took his girl.

But what if Achilles genuinely loved Patroclus? If at the time of inception, they truly believed that Achilles was heartbroken and not just lusting, they’d see him in a different light. But for centuries they couldn’t even fathom homosexual love as opposed to lust. Achilles in the view of the time was tragic, if he was in love so much that he despised the world for the loss of Patroclus, and just as tragic if it was his only platonic friend in the world.

On a purely literary and lore basis, how some one identifies could be a part of GBX vision. You needn’t agree with that vision of the future, and I would never impress upon you that vision, but it may be them creating a world where the normalization of such aspects has long since happened. It is after all a remote enclave of the galaxy in the distant future.

It is difficult to tell a writer flat out what is and isn’t important in his writing. Sure you can judge the quality of the writing, but the message is very much theirs to make.

8 Likes
#349

It is a form of passive-aggressive hatred and oppression.

Irrespective of whether it is your intent or not, it is such.

Someone can toss the F word around at Sir Hammerlock, and not have any ill will, via a[n inexplicable] lack of understanding of the term and what it represents at its fundaments.

They could hypothetically do this with totally innocent ignorance on their part.

And they would still be causing harm to real people, however inadvertently.

Deliberately not calling FL4K by its gender, is doing much the same - slur by proxy of omission.

Except you are electing to do so with the intent, because you already know this is how they feel.

It is telling them they are so much less that they do not even merit their feelings being acknowledged.

They already said it bothers them.

Why persist, except to bother them?

6 Likes
#350

For me, this is a distraction that has overtaken and replaced all excitement for the game. To me, the fact that people are being banned from the forums for expressing the “wrong” opinions about a fictional character’s gender just feels wrong.

My gut tells me that this distraction will not be good for the game.

#351

No one’s been banned.

6 Likes
Which Character Are you Going to Play First? Take two (informed choice)
#352

I am out, but I just wanted to say:

You might want to try probiotics.

Please do not misunderstand me.

Ciao.

2 Likes
#353

I have come to realize that very few people have had the benefit of a high school philosophy class…
I mean, a being that can think and feel like a human should be entitled to have their choices respected. Am I wrong?

And for those crying out “they’re a made up character”… yea. They are. Just like The T-800, Hermione Granger, Bruce Wane, John Watson, Dorothy Gale, Bugs Bunny, Minnie Mouse, Homer Simpson, CL4P-TP and a plethora of other people that you people ALWAYS gender correctly.

7 Likes
#354

Jordangold527,

Respect is earned, we are not entitled to it. Of course we are free to make our choices, I haven’t seen anyone argue otherwise.

However, your argument is different, I think that you’re arguing that everyone should be required to use everyone else’s preferred pronouns. This argument looks to control others instead of let them make their choices… High school philosophy.

And correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t all of the characters that you listed that are ALWAYS gendered correctly also bad examples? Isn’t Fl4k a relatively unique case in our culture right now (especially looking backward?)?

#355

You probably won’t be surprised by this, but I’m not even sure what you mean with your comment… Have a good day.