Dude (or dudette or in between), I’ve been saying that for 2 days 
Although tbf, I think the issue has shifted from “I don’t want to use that language” to “I don’t want to be forced to use that language because…”
2 Likes
Is this really an accurate statement? I am an agnostic, have no religious background, and say things like “My God!!!” or “Jesus H Christ!!!” all the time, and have zero problem avoiding it when someone asks me to stop taking the lord’s name in vain. A change in language does not equal a change in belief. Courtesy does not require belief, and I’m sorry you feel that it does. But why should your mistaken understanding of that relationship be forced upon others?
I’m going to retract that last bit now. Upon rereading it feels unnecessary, and I apologize to @H0RSE in case they read it before I deleted it.
7 Likes
I believe that there is male, female, intersex, and if you must classify it as separate trans.
Male is he, female is she, intersex/trans is he/she/they.
The reason I don’t support non-binary is that it’s not just about gender but also sex too despite as much as people try to separate the two.
If it all it was just about there being more to masculinity and femininity, then I would be okay. I agree with that. Just because your male doesn’t mean you have to be masculine same with females.
But then you have them also say I’m not female and don’t want to be referred to as she which gets into sex.
When someone says he or she, they aren’t speaking to your gender, whether you are masculine or feminine, they are referring to whether you are male or female, what are you biologically not socially.
It’s fine to not want to be defined by what the social construct of what a woman is. But I believe you are still a woman therefore a she. You can still be as womanly, manly, both, neither as you want.
Even in this webpage you can see that sex and gender fused. In googles definition sex is mentioned in tandem with gender:
“either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.”
Yet it says social not biological but still says sexes. Also google on the definition of sexes:
“either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.”
which is biological, yet used used for the definition of gender.
So I’ll say it again. If it was strictly about gender in the sense that you don’t have to fit into the idea of what a female is or male is. I would be okay. But once you say your not female and do not use she that’s where my opinion splits.
Does this make me wrong for having a different opinion, no. Does it make you right, no.
You guys keep on referencing the current forum rules, but as the current forum rules stand there is nothing wrong with not agreeing with non-binary views.
Be respectful: " This includes, but is not limited to, homophobic, transphobic, and misogynistic insults, insults relating to disabilities, or shaming of any kind aimed at any person or persons."
Choosing to say he instead of they is not homophobic, transphobic, insulting, or shaming.
Don’t be disruptive: “This means no spamming, no trolling, no flaming, no inappropriate content, no platform wars, no backseat moderating, no racist, sexist, homophobic, or transphobic slurs, and other such behavior detrimental to conversation. It means that when you disagree with someone, you discuss your differences in a calm and civil manner and take the matter to private message should it begin to interfere with or derail conversation in the thread; that when others decide the conversation is over, you respect their boundaries and disengage;”
Again this is not the things I listed above. It’s not spamming, it’s not flamming, its not trolling. It’s a disagreement and should be handled as such.
I’ve seen people say it’s the same as a racial slur, it’s not. A racial slur is a derogatory term. That’s its intent and that hasn’t change. If someone uses it it’s to cause a fight, insult someone, or say they are lesser.
Choosing to say he is none of those.
If I had to compare it to anything, and even then it’s hard to compare to it would be religion.
You hold your beliefs in religion, I hold mine. We are allowed to have a difference in opinion as long as we don’t butt heads.
I can say x is the creator, you can say y is the creator. I’m still free to say x is the creator as you are to say y is. Just don’t force it on one another. It’s okay for me to think I’m right, it’s okay for you to think your right, just don’t tell the other they are wrong.
That’s why I said the idea of banning people for having a difference in opinion as long as they aren’t doing it to insult, hate, troll, or cause a fight, but because they have a difference of opinion shouldn’t be allowed.
If you guys said anyone who starts a fight, troll, or uses misgendering as a way to insult people will get banned. I would be fine with that. But as it stands you guys, despite saying you haven’t chose a side, are saying anyone who doesn’t follow non-binary beliefs will potentially get banned.
There are two forms of accept.
I can accept it, as in tolerate.
or
I can accept it, as in support it.
You guys want the latter. You don’t want people to tolerate it, you want people to support it. And yes me using they instead of he if I wanted to would be supporting it. Tolerating it would be letting people say they if they want to and me saying he as long as I don’t do it from a place of malice.
If it’s impolite of me to not conform to your belief, isn’t it also impolite to force yours onto mine? Threatening a ban if I don’t is forcing, me choosing not to say they and not being malicious and letting you say they is not forcing.
3 Likes
I can’t help but feel like this is inaccurate. Everything I have read seems to mean that what is desired is respect, not support. I respect plenty of people who hold different views, even if I don’t support them. Seriously, no one is asking you to put a flag on your personal property, only that you respect their views and that they respect yours. I respect that you have an opinion I don’t share, I respect that you took the time to explain it and provide support for your opinion, but if you had a GoFundMe for a cause centered around this opinion I wouldn’t contribute, nor would I attempt to denigrate you for it, but I will always defend your right to hold those opinions.
If you know that what they want is for you to use “they”, and choose not to, with any motivation, is disrespectful. If you told me how you wanted to be referred to I would whether or not I agreed with it. Why is this so painful?
3 Likes
And I would say this is not the problem why this discussion keeps poping up, but then I’d be repeating myself again… for the 5th time or more.
Key word, you.
A change in language can mean a change in belief, because it’s not just a simple change in language. If it was then they would have no problem with me saying he or she.
You omitting to say “my god” is refraining to say a phrase all together. And a more simple “change in language” then changing how you believe something.
You don’t need to say my god, I have to use a pronoun. See the difference?
There is no way for me to omit saying they/he/she in a conversation as it’s part of normal conversation. By me saying they I’m supporting it. By you not saying those phrases you aren’t supporting it.
Since you want to use religion as an example her is a better example.
I believe the sabbath is on saturday, others sunday. If i were to enter a discussion and say that sabbath is on saturday and they told me it was sunday, I would continue to say saturday. Even if I was in their church. Because that’s my belief.
I am not forcing my mistaken understanding on anyone. Please show me how I’m forcing it? I guess outright threatening to ban people isn’t forcing.
There is nothing mistaken just difference in opinions. Why can’t you understand that, why should that belief be forced upon others.
If they wanted to be respectful they would respect a difference in opinions. The moment I start using they it means I support that belief.
Because it’s opinion on how these words should be used. The words in question are not even words that are derogatory.
By me not forcing, my view onto them is being respectful. Threatening to ban me is not being respectful.
Like I said I do not agree with their views, so I won’t support it. I don’t see how this is hard to see that once you start using those pronouns you are support it. You are literally pushing their views by doing so.
6 Likes
Isn’t that disrespectful? What if I came in to your place of worship and said sabbath was on the third Tuesday of February when the moon is full? Wouldn’t you feel disrespected if I refused to, at the very least, stop blaspheming in your place of worship? Again, RESPECT does not require SUPPORT or BELIEF. This is a relatively simple concept. If you can’t accept that I’m okay with that, but do me a solid and don’t respond to this. I’d like to agree to disagree, and you seem to think that isn’t an option.
6 Likes
I’m gonna go ahead and run under the assumption that peer reviewed documentation by licensed medical professionals and first hand stories of others isn’t really going to put a dent in this, right? I mean, it feels worth asking but I feel I know what the answer is.
10 Likes
No I wouldn’t.
Because your religion is not wrong. As long as you aren’t shoving you belief upon mine it’s okay. If we were discussing sabbath in my place or worship and you told me well I believe it’s on Tuesday of February I would be okay with it. Because you are free too.
Respect goes both ways. Forcing your belief upon others isn’t respect.
And I do think it’s an option to agree to disagree lmfao. You’re the one who’s trying to make it out like I’m wrong.
1 Like
No, it really doesn’t. It simply means respecting them as a human being who believes differently to you. That is all.
5 Likes
Dude… your opinion is that other people’s sense of self and being is wrong because you don’t believe it’s valid. Despite… a fairly sizable amount of evidence to the contrary.
The “middle” ground you’ve been pushing is literally your right to express that opinion (again, that they are not valid) through pronouns, and deny them any way to criticize that. That’s not agreeing to disagree.
4 Likes
In a better world, maybe. In this one I’ll have to say “nope”.
Our good ship has entered the Sea of Belief now. Belief has an interesting aspect, which is that the “other side” whoever they may be should respect your belief first.
So yes, respect goes both ways, but: Respect my belief first and we won’t have a problem. This leads to the following statement: “Yes, I recognize what [insert other side] considers polite, but I’ll go right ahead and ignore your wishes anyway, because they aren’t conform to my beliefs. Do not consider me impolite, but belief trumps politeness.”
Treating people with respect is not dependent on the other persons respecting me first.
2 Likes
So… maybe this question has been asked and maybe it’s waayyy off base so if it is insensitive or otherwise I’ll apologize and see myself out in advance but I think it’s somewhat relevant or at least a good exercise for someone who absolutely doesn’t get it.
If people are only male or female then what do you call a person who is born with both sexual organs. How would you refer to them if they didn’t really know if they were a “he” or a “she”. Are they forced to go with the one that is more developed? Are you the one to decide that or they? And if they choose not to?
You see, I understand that this is a political issue for some, but I don’t understand why. Some people feel more comfortable being referred to in a certain way. I wore long hair when I was young, and some have mistaken me for a girl and referred to me as a she but I don’t get offended. If they are corrected and continue to call me a girl as an insult, that would be both dumb and somewhat offensive.
Furthermore, I think people need to realize that although politics should not be forced into games, it is up to the creators of that game if they want to make a political statement in it. If Anita Sarkesian told gearbox you need to do this to be politically correct and they did, that would be dumb. If Gearbox says, hey, we want to further this social issue in our game I think that is actually admirable. And if I agreed with that political stance it would add incentive to purchase the game and if I didn’t I would presume they really did not want me as a customer anyway. Which is fine. Honestly, if you’re so hurt by their stance don’t purchase the game. I think it’s a rather dumb reason, and there are better reasons to buy or not buy or play the game but so be it.
To be honest, I don’t know if I 100% agree with an idea of a non gender person because, it’s, well, kind of an odd thought. The idea is somewhat foreign to me. If I got to know someone who identified as non binary it might make more sense - but at the same time if we aren’t going to pigeonhole men and women into the generally socially accepted norms of 100 years ago I can’t fathom why you wouldn’t just pick one or the other pronoun to make everybody’s lives easier because replacing those pronouns is kind of weird the way I grew up speaking English. BUT - if it someone told me that was insulting or incorrect for them for one reason or the other it would be pretty petty of me to disregard their request.
I don’t know - this isn’t an argument worth having. Fl4k wants to be called they/them. They’re an AI with feelings (presumably) and I’m sure the dev team is trying to be understanding. So comply or go somewhere else. I don’t go into a Baptist church and start preaching atheism. Or better yet, I don’t go into an atheist forum and start preaching the teachings of Allah.
If someone walks up to you and says you’re not a man, you need to identify as a woman because you don’t meet x criteria than that’s an issue, but if someone with female genitalia says they don’t feel like a woman and would rather be referred to as a they/them and it bothers you sooooo much, don’t interact with them.
I’m losing my train of thought. This should really be an unnecessary topic but yes - I guarantee you gearbox wanted this discussion to ensue and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Discussion is way better than what the (American at least, I can’t speak for other parts of the world) public has devolved into lately in my estimation.
6 Likes
I believe it’s valid, just like mine is valid to myself.
Gender is a social construction. And evidence goes both ways.
And they are allowed to push their opinion and I have no right to mine.
That’s being hypocritical.
They can disagree with me I can disagree with them. What you want is for one side to be shut off.
I am respecting them as human beings because I’m not dehumanizing them.
And I respect they think differently, just like they should respect I think differently.
It’s a tough issue. Back in I think the 1950s, one doctor made a decision and performed surgery on such a child. It back-fired in later life. The last time I read anything on this (a BBC article either this year or last) the general consensus was to try and put off any intervention until the child was old enough to make their own decision, which in some cases meant hormone treatment to delay puberty.
So the short answer is: it depends, and it’s (rightfully) mostly up to the person themselves once they are old enough to make that decision. Terribly difficult situation though.
1 Like
Nah. What I want is civil.
People have pushed forward the most neutral way you could possibly deal with it-
That’s unacceptable too though, right? Because that’s the middle ground. I cannot fathom another middle ground.
3 Likes
I’m still not sure how using a person’s preferred pronoun amounts to you being disrespected? Respect is something you give/show to another, not something you take.
4 Likes