I remember my first Slagga: she had a Dahl grip and a mag size accessory and was underleveled by 1… but she still came through for me every single time.
Melee-heavy Maya is hilarious. “Bullets are for getting back up”
OP3 is a great balance for me. I have @adabiviak to thank for moving house there.
I actually find the Grog quite annoying as a slag tool… Accuracy and low mag size cause me frustration. Anyone else have this? I only really use it with melee Zer0 though, Salvador may be a lot better. Also my melee Zer0 is under quite a lot of pressure to deal out slag very quickly before he disappears.
Can you play at OP8 until you’ve built a heap of Florentines and set light to them?
The accuracy and low mag size don’t bother me as much as the slow projectile speed (so harder to hit moving enemies) and the intoxication that comes with it when you don’t want it.
That’s about it. I was VERY reluctantly let him have a Grog when I started raiding and running the Peak at OP8.
That said, Adabiviak predicted, it turned my PBFG into a Norfleet with the drunk effect - and that’s pretty cool.
This argument wins. You made the Slagga sound like that Bandit girl from the trailer park that merits a wedding ring even though you’re going to have to raise 3 of her kids, one of whom is 3/4 your age and has a father getting paroled next week.
Personally my only other character that uses SMGs is one of my Zer0s. After that no one uses SMGs for damage except Beehawking on Axton, but that doesn’t count as a Florentine will never replace it in that situation.
I’m talking about optimized builds that are the community’s standard of effective. Things like melee Maya or even most true Allegiance builds don’t reach this standard in my mind. Other things like the Shadow of the Seraphs are TG worthy, but unless you’re using a Bekah (even then), you’re missing a lot of potential power on most characters for example. There is a difference between what is fun, and what is effective and synergizes with a character.
I make fun builds as well, but at the same time I don’t think the Excalibastard is all that great.
SMGs in particular tend to be a weak class over all by comparison, and this really shows in TPS. Even forgetting the fact that it isn’t a Sandhawk we’re talking about, but a Florentine, I’d rather use…
- Sal - pistols and shotguns
- Gaige - pistols (Fibber), shotguns, and launchers
- Krieg - shotguns
- Sniper Zer0 - snipers
- Melee Zer0 - the Rapier
- Axton - pistols, shotguns, and launchers
And those are just the premier options, SMGs still rank lower IMO most of the time.
- Sal : shotguns
- Gaige : shotguns
- Krieg : shotguns
- Zero : shotguns ( except melee of course )
- Maya : shotguns
- Axton : shotguns
Only Maya uses SMGs in optimum/effective builds? Well, I can’t claim to be good enough to be able to tell what counts as that and I’m not really looking for it, but that seems a bit odd. There are some very strong SMGs out there that non-Maya classes could surely consider highly effective? My Hellborn Krieg adores the Hellfire, Krieg and Axton can do crazily powerful things with Tediore plasma casters and the Baby Maker, the Bitch is great in general…
My only character who doesn’t like them so much is Zer0, both melee and sniper, because he’s all about getting damage out in short hard-hitting shots.
Basically. Without an unique affect, any gun that isn’t a shotgun or sniper usually lacks sustained stopping power in BL2. Plasma Casters are the only exception, but since they aren’t in TPS I usually don’t include them when I say that.
In TPS (in my own mind) the epitomy of guns on every character is either a shotgun, laser, or sniper; and without Aurelia even snipers start to fall off. Nisha is the only one that breaks the mold with pistols, but that’s only because OFEoY is so strong.
I don’t include Tediore reloads when I make that statement, as they are basically grenades that use SMG ammo. And the difference between a Hellfire on those characters, and an Omen, is night and day. For Krieg the Twister, Blockhead, Carnage, Harold, etc… just blow away anything that the SMG pool brings to the table.
My Cunning tree Zer0 actually quite likes a Bee-less Sandhawk, and even a Tattler too (I think). His bullet speed, Two Fang (as the recoil is a non-issue), and hesitation to get close to enemies means he synergizes well with them.
- Salvador - No synergy with MS or NKLO automatically puts them in a bad place, even on an enjoyment standard. And the only Hoarder build I personally like is one with Topneaas.
- Gaige - The LBT tree is shock locked and trash for impact damage. I only play Anarchy Gaige, and at higher stacks SMGs aren’t viable at all.
- Krieg - Diminishing returns FPS locked fire rate, massive mag increases, fast reloads, and the need to overkill enemies screams to use slow high powered guns balanced by their small mags. And if you add in Salt the Wound and Strip the Flesh, then that’s SGs again and there are no explosive SMGs.
- Plus surprisingly, Krieg has thee best overall accuracy increase in BL2 at 50%.
I don’t expect you to agree with me, as my view point is even extreme for someone like Chuck. But a trip to OP8 might make the difference more noticeable.
I do play quite a bit at OP8, mostly in coop these days but I was up there in solo for a long time. Because my OP3 characters are almost all allegiances, it’s fun to dip back up into OP8 and indulge in all brands at once from time to time! I cloned a save file when I got each of my characters to OP8 and then moved one version down to 3.
I moved down there so I had more control over balancing gear, which gets rid of basically all the restrictions being at OP8 brings in. There are some guns that I don’t think scale well and which deserve a ‘buff’. I don’t have to do that for many SMGs, my Lascaux might be OP4 or 5. It’s mainly for guns like the Retcher, standard bandit assault rifles, most of my shields are at higher levels. Ad is my inspiration for all of it
We’ll have to agree to disagree about SMGs it seems, and this isn’t me in ‘I love the Tidal Wave’ mode; even at OP8 there are a number that I think very much deserve their place in the top gear threads.
Well…I just finished doing the same.
I cloned my OP8 Maya, sold ALL her gear, punted her down to OP0 and bought the first things I saw in the Sanctuary vendors : a Breakneck Banshee, slag SubMalevolent Grace, shock Hed Shoter, roid shield and happened to have the mission open for a Law. This is perhaps the antithesis of what KhimeraKiller is putting forth.
In honour of the day’s bickering, I’ve named her Scorn. She’s just arrived at Hammerlock’s place.
While I wouldn’t say it in those terms, there is a lot of truth to that.
While Khim is certainly able to articulate his point himself, let me give you my perception of that.
Shotguns and snipers are balanced for power around other flaws, so they are usually the type of weapons that are the hardest to manage but that net you the best DPS overall. I would even argue that apart from a few uniques, Shotguns are the only weapon type at the top and snipers are simple the only other type to be able to “keep up” with them.
You can see that when playing Salvador: Ammo is not an issue and neither is accuracy, so you defect to the most powerful weapon types, which means Launchers, Shotguns and Snipers. Ammo consumption is the great equalizer for gun types (more powerful = less ammo in the bank, usually)
Most of the best, most powerful guns in the game either use a scarce ammo type or consume more than one per shot to compensate (Harold anyone?) The best SMGs overall are PCs, and they use 2 per shot to compensate. The most powerful pistols (DPS-wise) have the binary accessory. The best Non-Unique ARs often have the Vladof Spin barrel, which is another way of saying “more ammo spent in the same time frame”. The Best Jakobs ARs (outside of the Bekah, which SHOULD consume more than one ammo per shot) are the Gatlings… they use 3 ammo per shot.
Shotguns do both: they use the 2nd smallest ammo pool AND they consume up to 4 per shot.
That being said
This is only from a Min-Max point of view: there are plenty of guns that are “powerful enough” to play at OP8 that are not shotguns or snipers, this is simply a point about what is the best choice out there when your priorities align with performance.
The Florentine is one such gun, albeith it is simply more obvious that it is not fully optimized than most other good choices out there, but the argument that people who don’t like the Florentine are generally making is the same argument that @khimerakiller is (appropriately) making about all SMGs or other non-DPS optimized gun types in general, except he is coming from an even more “focused” point of view, being a min/maxer.
Let’s put it this way: if Borderlands was competitive, there would be a LOT more shotguns and snipers used
Guns have to have one or more of these 3 things to be top tier in BL2. They have to…
- Emulate shotguns
- Have increased critical damage
- Have splash damage
While it seems very broad, it really isn’t when you look at all the weapons in BL2. I initiate a fun challenge to anyone that can think of a top tier gun that doesn’t have one of these 3 attributes.
How do you place lasers when you get to TPS? The addition of multiplicative damage to the list of sought after affects really throws a curve ball at this theory, as lasers have a massive ammo pool. Even Splitters don’t suffer from the increased ammo consumption because their mag is so big.
I have my own, but I’m curious to hear yours.
Sometimes it feels like you knowledgeable guys are judging a beauty pagent with all and only the most gorgeous contestants in it - choosing between a Harold and an Orphan Maker - meanwhile I’m on the other side of town in a seedy tavern/brothel consorting with Sledge, a Bunny and a Retcher…
I love Sledge’s Shotgun, I think it’s one of the best mobbing shotguns in BL2. But really only Maya and Zero like it, as you kinda want splash damage for Krieg and Axton, and MS synergy for Sal.
Thats one way to put it lol.
“It was Hattie, in the brothel, with a legendary shotgun. I win!”
I’ve just got one thing to say EXPLOSIONS
This seems about right to me too. I will add a new entry to this list later on.
First off, let me preface this by saying that I think 2K AUS knocked it out of the park when it comes to balance with lasers. This is almost perfect. they balance basic weapon type around ammo consumption with a large ammo pool and successfully emulated the playstyle of 4 different weapon types in a single one. Exceptionally well done. The Blasters are better ARs than the actual ARs… everything is just so well balanced.
They would qualify as the later: Railers use 4, and splitters use 3, so the carry capacity for those goes from 1350 (or so ? ) to about 340 and 450, which is barely above what Shotguns have.
The main difference here is the scale of difficulty in TPS: while blasters and beams work fine in TPS, they would be played about as much as ARs and SMGs are in BL2 had the difficulty been on par with OP8. In short, those 2 weapon types work in TPS because TPS is easier.
Had it been as hard as OP8, we would still see splitters and maybe railers, but that’s it (excluding glitches and the Maliwan continuous fire bonus)
The Maliwan continuous fire bonus is like one of those things you have on your list above: it’s one of those things that, alone, make it so that some guns qualify as end-game worthy.
Coupled with one of the above things (emulating shotguns for splitters and a crit bonus for Railers) and you have perfectly serviceable guns for end game.
Other than that, Splitters are fast and have big mag size (even accounting for the ammo consumption) so they are even better than shotguns if you care more about sustained DPS than high damage.
Also, Cryo as opposed to slag doesn’t need you to swap to something else to do increased damage.
And lastly, it’s really hard to get crappy parts with Lasers
Both sound equally interesting… that’s why I dabble in both.
I talk about top gear stuff here, but when no one is looking, I really enjoy my Roksalt and Teapot