The Florentine Love/Hate Thread

Borderlands 2 BL2 General Discussion
#101

While I wouldn’t say it in those terms, there is a lot of truth to that.
While Khim is certainly able to articulate his point himself, let me give you my perception of that.

Shotguns and snipers are balanced for power around other flaws, so they are usually the type of weapons that are the hardest to manage but that net you the best DPS overall. I would even argue that apart from a few uniques, Shotguns are the only weapon type at the top and snipers are simple the only other type to be able to “keep up” with them.

You can see that when playing Salvador: Ammo is not an issue and neither is accuracy, so you defect to the most powerful weapon types, which means Launchers, Shotguns and Snipers. Ammo consumption is the great equalizer for gun types (more powerful = less ammo in the bank, usually)

Most of the best, most powerful guns in the game either use a scarce ammo type or consume more than one per shot to compensate (Harold anyone?) The best SMGs overall are PCs, and they use 2 per shot to compensate. The most powerful pistols (DPS-wise) have the binary accessory. The best Non-Unique ARs often have the Vladof Spin barrel, which is another way of saying “more ammo spent in the same time frame”. The Best Jakobs ARs (outside of the Bekah, which SHOULD consume more than one ammo per shot) are the Gatlings… they use 3 ammo per shot.

Shotguns do both: they use the 2nd smallest ammo pool AND they consume up to 4 per shot.

That being said

This is only from a Min-Max point of view: there are plenty of guns that are “powerful enough” to play at OP8 that are not shotguns or snipers, this is simply a point about what is the best choice out there when your priorities align with performance.

The Florentine is one such gun, albeith it is simply more obvious that it is not fully optimized than most other good choices out there, but the argument that people who don’t like the Florentine are generally making is the same argument that @khimerakiller is (appropriately) making about all SMGs or other non-DPS optimized gun types in general, except he is coming from an even more “focused” point of view, being a min/maxer.

Let’s put it this way: if Borderlands was competitive, there would be a LOT more shotguns and snipers used

8 Likes
#102

Guns have to have one or more of these 3 things to be top tier in BL2. They have to…

  • Emulate shotguns
  • Have increased critical damage
  • Have splash damage

While it seems very broad, it really isn’t when you look at all the weapons in BL2. I initiate a fun challenge to anyone that can think of a top tier gun that doesn’t have one of these 3 attributes.

How do you place lasers when you get to TPS? The addition of multiplicative damage to the list of sought after affects really throws a curve ball at this theory, as lasers have a massive ammo pool. Even Splitters don’t suffer from the increased ammo consumption because their mag is so big.

I have my own, but I’m curious to hear yours.

5 Likes
#103

Sometimes it feels like you knowledgeable guys are judging a beauty pagent with all and only the most gorgeous contestants in it - choosing between a Harold and an Orphan Maker - meanwhile I’m on the other side of town in a seedy tavern/brothel consorting with Sledge, a Bunny and a Retcher…

11 Likes
#104

I love Sledge’s Shotgun, I think it’s one of the best mobbing shotguns in BL2. But really only Maya and Zero like it, as you kinda want splash damage for Krieg and Axton, and MS synergy for Sal.

5 Likes
#105

Thats one way to put it lol.

1 Like
#106

“It was Hattie, in the brothel, with a legendary shotgun. I win!”

8 Likes
#107

I’ve just got one thing to say EXPLOSIONS

4 Likes
#108

This seems about right to me too. I will add a new entry to this list later on.

First off, let me preface this by saying that I think 2K AUS knocked it out of the park when it comes to balance with lasers. This is almost perfect. they balance basic weapon type around ammo consumption with a large ammo pool and successfully emulated the playstyle of 4 different weapon types in a single one. Exceptionally well done. The Blasters are better ARs than the actual ARs… everything is just so well balanced.

They would qualify as the later: Railers use 4, and splitters use 3, so the carry capacity for those goes from 1350 (or so ? ) to about 340 and 450, which is barely above what Shotguns have.

The main difference here is the scale of difficulty in TPS: while blasters and beams work fine in TPS, they would be played about as much as ARs and SMGs are in BL2 had the difficulty been on par with OP8. In short, those 2 weapon types work in TPS because TPS is easier.

Had it been as hard as OP8, we would still see splitters and maybe railers, but that’s it (excluding glitches and the Maliwan continuous fire bonus)

The Maliwan continuous fire bonus is like one of those things you have on your list above: it’s one of those things that, alone, make it so that some guns qualify as end-game worthy.

Coupled with one of the above things (emulating shotguns for splitters and a crit bonus for Railers) and you have perfectly serviceable guns for end game.

Other than that, Splitters are fast and have big mag size (even accounting for the ammo consumption) so they are even better than shotguns if you care more about sustained DPS than high damage.

Also, Cryo as opposed to slag doesn’t need you to swap to something else to do increased damage.

And lastly, it’s really hard to get crappy parts with Lasers :stuck_out_tongue:

Me too :slight_smile:

5 Likes
#109

Both sound equally interesting… that’s why I dabble in both.

I talk about top gear stuff here, but when no one is looking, I really enjoy my Roksalt and Teapot :slight_smile:

2 Likes
#110

Quoted so you can’t go back and pretend you didn’t say that later!

Both are pretty good guns though - the Teapot at least is usually listed as an alternative to the Hornet. If you could re-farm a Teapot as easily as a Hornet, I think you’d see it in use a lot more in levelling.

I’ve also got a full set of elemental RokSalts somewhere around here (along with the same for the Octo, Rubi, and Kitten)

3 Likes
#111

They’re not down at the tavern of sin I’m afraid. More like a reasonably comfortable hotel. :grin:

3 Likes
#112

The Teapot is as good as the Hornet in my book. It’s a bit less powerful and has a shorter burst, but most people don’t know that, but it makes up for it with an accuracy that rivals snipers.

Consider this: a Twin Teapot shoots 4 bullets in less than half the time it takes the hornet to fire its 7 and still retain better accuracy. You can even trade the Dahl grip for a Torgue one to make up for the loss in damage, and not even feel the difference in accuracy (or mag size)

the Teapot would be on nearly all Top Gear lists if the Hornet didn’t exist. :slight_smile:

As for the Roksalt… this is purely because I think it looks cool :sunglasses:

3 Likes
#113

Hornet vs. Teapot
They’re both great guns. It’s another case of either or really

2 Likes
#114

This is an odd one for me : my very first playthrough, got the Teapot and it just annihilated everything. I had no idea about element matching, it just seemed like BL2’s answer to the Defiler.

Then I learned about the Hornet and was annoyed by it.

Now the reverse is true. Granted, I’ll never truly be in love with a Dahl but I definitely value the Hornet. The Teapot though has made it to my annoying gun list.

I believe this most recent character will be required to use only the gear I hate the most :thinking:

5 Likes
#115

Hornet, 'cause I’m not much of a fan of Tina’s quest for the Teapot…about the only thing I don’t like about Tina.

2 Likes
#116

:scream:

There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a river of dead bodies stretching from Fleshstick to the entrance.

6 Likes
#117

me too, the initial builds I have are corrosive maya, shock Gaige, Fire Krieg, explosive axton. and weapons are all restricted to that element.

2 Likes
#118

Things like the Trespasser don’t count if that’s what you had in mind. :stuck_out_tongue: I was more going off offensive gear, and not utility.

You think Railguns are powerful? I think they’re the weakest variant by far, despite them following the increased ammo usage rule.

Without excluding their manufacture bonus, I think Maliwan Blasters could keep up, as I don’t see why an exception has to be made for them. (The same way I think the increased ammo consumption of Railguns, crit bonus of Hyperion barreled pistols, penetration of Dahl lasers, etc… doesn’t automatically make those guns good.)

While they wouldn’t match Shotguns, I think their ammo pool alone would give snipers a run for their money placement wise, as they already do in TPS for the most part.

I forgot the point I was going to make ATM.

2 Likes
#119

That is what I meant:

this list:

So yeah, I agree that Maliwan Blasters would keep up because they have something from “the list”

Not really (Dahl ones are pretty good though), but on paper they have everything to work, it’s just execution that’s lacking.

The thing is that in BL2 we can say that in general, “Snipers are good”… but of you picked the average Hyperion or Dahl sniper, you would think they suck.
Only some combination of parts and effects can make them good, and they have those floating around in BL2, not so in TPS

Basically, Railers suffer from a lack of good uniques, from the fact that the best feature of lasers is based on firing constantly (which is at odds with the playstyle of railers) and that TPS is pretty hard to snipe in, in general because of level design. (I have also found Snipers lacking in that game compared to BL2).
But they are not intrinsically bad.

Awww :frowning:

1 Like
#120

The Anarchist/Stalker more than competes with shotguns/snipers without the aforementioned gimmicks…though it is a relative exception :grinning

2 Likes