The last 2 rounds of Moze adjustments - Personal Opinion

I appreciate the effort being put into trying to bring Moze up to par with the other VH’s, but It’s still not enough to bring me back to the character.


  • Click Click is an anti-synergy skill to be so deep in the tree, unless you are using CoV weapons (That need a buff), or you are doing the ammo vendor trick to run your ammo down in your gun.

    The entire idea of Bottomless Mags is that your Magazine doesn’t empty, meaning that this really only works for CoV weapons, and the CoV Weapon Breaking doesn’t synergize with most of the tree / CoMs.

  • You still have to invest a massive amount of points into the Demolition Woman Skill Tree to have any sort of healing outside of Iron Bear (unless you’re using the new Com, and giving up massive damage), and then you are just constantly spamming grenades, and creating such visual pollution that it’s an unhappy experience.

  • Iron Bear is still the clunkiest Action Skill in the game. You either invest heavily into it, to the point where the only piece of gear that you care about is your COM, or you are hopping in / out of it as fast as possible to trigger ASE anoints.

  • Her trees are dedicated to adding Incendiary Damage to EVERYTHING, but no way to buff the incendiary damage to make up for the fact that it’s weak against armor and shields, which the overwhelming majority of the characters at end game are sporting.

I started the game on moze, racked up 8 days played before DLC 1 dropped, and I’ve let her sit almost non stop since. I go back to her when there are buffs / changes / level increases to see if there is something that becomes viable and fun.

At 57, I have a build that can support N2M anoints indefinitely, creates constant explosions, adds tons of incendiary damage, and is doing exactly what it’s supposed to do.

But, it’s just not as viable as it should be. With

  • Green Monster Corrosive running rampant, thanks to never reloading
  • Demo Woman and Bottomless Mags spec
  • Com And Artifact additions for Assault Weapon, Weapon Damage, and Brand Specific Weapon Damage
  • On Grenade Thrown Damage Increase anoints
  • ASE Shock on Shield
  • ASE / N2M Cryo on Gun
  • Incendiary from tree

She is just far slower than what she should be.

I wanted Moze to be my go to char. I loved the idea of the char. I Love the idea of a mech using / machine gun toting badass. But the gameplay doesn’t hold up.


I’ve been using Dahl weapons lately and have been in the perfect 5%-50% of my magazine. You don’t need to fully max out mag size to get uber regen. That is why your damage is low. Get more damage rolls and lay off the mag size.


To me, this is just a prime example of how poorly thought out the character is. As a skill it’s a fine idea, but putting it one step above ammo regen? It’s just in the wrong tree, but I would guess they stuck in there because it’s a magazine themed skill.

The last two adjustments don’t make much sense, unless you assume they created Sapper to be the constant go-to for everybody. They can’t really increase survivability by increasing Experimental Munitions by 5%, but that was the reasoning they gave. It only makes sense if you assume they’re buffing damage because they know players are going to be forced to give up the coms with damage on them. It’s like they’re trying to use the damage boosts to compensate.

They should just update Vampyr to work as lifesteal for all splash damage. Seems fair as she’s the only character that lacks lifesteal of regen on kill (or both in Zane’s case). Then they should give her a skill that adds passive health regen, because she’s the only character that doesn’t have that too. finally they should add a skill that allows Iron Bear to revive you- because yet again she’s the only character that can’t revive herself from a FFYL.

I’m cynical enough to say it isn’t going to get better. If someone had even thought for half a second about these issues, they wouldn’t even have got past the design phase. I don’t really expect the decisions to suddenly be better than they were when the character was created.


Not true. It’s a ramp up skill designed to give more damage the lower your mag gets. There’s a reason it has 3 stages to it’s damage.

That’s your interpretation of it not it’s purpose. Just because you build into BM doesn’t mean you have to be running a build that never reloads. And CC is just one skill to take if it fits your build. Sure you can make a build that never leaves it’s full mag status. But you can also use Forge/Redis to just greatly increase your mag in a way that it slowly depletes over extended firing and this is where CC comes into play. The damage buff now makes that significant when it does come into play. This was a great way to buff it.

Moze actually has several ways to build around survival without constantly throwing nades most people just ignore it.

Stoke the Embers is a 30% incendiary buff. 3 points low in the tree. Pretty significant boost to fire.


I like these new round of updates for Moze. But first I wanna mention my worries:

  • Red chest event - Are we gonna have another troll level cap raise right after this event? It happened last time.
  • Moze is getting buffed but wll this work for Mayhem 2.0? What I am afraid of is all these buffs might be nullified by higher Mayhem difficulties. It’s like you go to a grocery store, they gave you free two bottles and you just have to pay one bottle (except the price is jacked to 3x).

Now the pro ones:

  • I think players are overstating too much the loss of dps with Sapper. If you got a com with good rolls, it does give a decent dmg boost and sustain due to lifesteal. Sure BM still wins in damage but everyone’s aware what you are giving up with the com.

  • Hammerdown Protocol buff is nice. I use it pretty much in clearing shields against mobs. Weaklings die quickly with BM com and explode due to radiation. However I always wished the reload times were faster.

  • Click click buff is good too. I got guns that go really low even with BT tree maxed. Sure I got one of those guns that never loses ammo too.

  • Specialist Bear buff. This one is good

  • Railgun buff. I assume this indirectly buffs Exploding Bullets? (EDIT: oh this is from the Red Tree and not Green)

  • Explosive Punctuation - This one is probably ok. Not sure of it’s needed.

What I am wishing for the next update:

  • Make Security Bear’s shield impregnable for 5 seconds kinda like Wotan’s inner shield during the double phase shield. I hate that by the time I exit I got like 3 hounds waiting to pounce on me. It’s funny SB’s shield is up but my Moze’s shield is gone already due to these kind of incidents

  • Give Moze some movement speed boost. Maybe a rocket pod where she can jump farther. Wait that sounds a cool idea. Instead of movement speed boost, maybe she can jump farther instead or fly like those flying Maliwan snipers :rofl:

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Yes, Mayhem 2.0 :rofl:


I was afraid of that. If they would do another coop loot, farm frenzy, red chest right after Mayhem 2.0 then things will be fine.

If nothing else you’ll still be able to benefit from this event through the twitch integration since Echocast rewards are always redeemed at the level your character is at.
It should also be noted that Mayhem 2.0 is actually more akin to the OP-levels in Borderlands 2 rather than another level cap increase. Like, you can have two identical guns at level 57, but if one of them dropped on higher Mayhem it’s gonna have more damage.

Agreed. Especially since it for one frees up skill points that you would normally have to dump into Vampyr just to ensure your survival and it also allows you to benefit more from damaging grenades, since the Cloning Maddening Tracker really doesn’t do that much damage (plus, it helps with ressource management because you don’t need to save up your grenades for when you need healing).
Also, just because none of the skills on the Sapper directly increase her damage that doesn’t mean the skills are bad or don’t affect her dps in any way.
Also, if you are using the Sapper you aren’t gonna be running a Deathless, so you can instead take the Pearl of Ineffable Knowledge (which is an excellent damage boost for Moze and you do already have one anyways because if you didn’t have the DLC, you wouldn’t have a Sapper) which considerably increases Moze’s damage output.

Okay, Moze doesn’t need infinite magazines on every gun, she just needs the ammo to last for one fight. You can afford to drop the mag size and let the ammunition regeneration reach a net-negative when at full fire-rate.

Click Click was already strong already strong because of how it interacted with Moze’s other multipliers in the Bottomless Mags tree, and it just became one of her strongest abilities outside of Short Fuse. Criticisms of Click Click being anti-synergistic with the rest of the skill tree are just straight up false, especially with these buffs.

The skill provides Bottomless Mags the upfront damage it desperately needs to actually kill anything, and it requires the player to actually put thought into how they use it. It also synergizes great with Scorching RPMs because fire rate directly reduces ammo efficiency, which is now a good thing when utilized with Click Click.


Under context the only criticism I have or see from others is that it doesn’t synergize with Forge, which is the capstone immediately after Click, Click. It has nothing to do with other skills in the tree. You have to invest heavily in that tree in order to get the skill, and the very next step of that tree works against it.


What I said, I said in relation to Click Click in the context of every other skill in the tree. This includes Forge. I honestly think that Click Click and Scorching RPMs are the backbone of the entire Bottomless Mags skilltree, and everything else is just there to make those two skills better.


Genuinely curious, what are good guns to use with CC?

It actually synergies well. Matched Set and Iron bank give you mag size. The more mag size you get the higher the bonus when at low ammo. I.e. if you have 1 ammo in a 50 mag clip you get a higher damage bonus than 1 ammo in a 10 mag clip. Scorching RPMs allows you to chew through that ammo faster. Also gives Crit boosts which is great for Short Fuse. Forge and Redistribution give you some ammo regen. Now you can stay at 5% to 30% low mag and maintain the buff.

Only skill that doesn’t play nice is Some for the Road. But that is an okay skill when mobbing and mostly used for bossing.

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Pretty much any gun that’s already good on Moze is going to be good for CC. Just need a setup that lets your mag slowly deplete as you fire.

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God I hope so.
I’m having trouble finding salt at the supermarket, this would solve the issue.

But it does. Click click is an ammo management skill. Click click needs to be combined with forge and weapons that have a mag size on the medium nigh range (maliwan, dahl?) in a way that your ammo depletes slowly during the fight granting you a damage boost that is constant. After the fight forge clicks (ah!) back and refills your mag.
Infinite ammo is only one possible application of bottomless mag, but it’s not the only one nor the most efficient.


I just did a PG Fervor and TTD test with 25% Crit penalty modifier.

Proving Grounds Fervor:

  • Dual Hammerdown Protocol: Insane visual clutter but not insane damage. Considering the huge AoE, it tends to miss a lot specially when the enemies are hiding behind a box. I wish the skill would permeate obstacles. I can’t tell much if I am doing more damage even with Specialist Bear. I do know anyone with shield gets stripped out with two hits of HP.
  • Dual Exploding Bullets. I had a good time using this with splash Moze and BM.

True Takedown

  • Dual Hammerdown Protocol: Pretty much useless if enemies are hiding or if your not aiming directly. I expect if I hit the ground, the big circle of explosion would affect nearby enemies. It doesn’t feel like it. If I do manage to hit the enemies, like on the bridge, their shields are gone. However I cannot feel that the reload time was improved. My Autobear is still firing at the same rate.
  • Dual Exploding Bullets. This one can kill but the sheer amount of mobs can’t keep up SB’s shield and hp. Pretty much useless.

So in TTD, Iron Bear is still best use as panic button or proccing anointments.

Now with Click, Click, I can feel the extra oomph of power with my Brainstormer and Sickle. However not with my Redistributors that barely go down (obviously).

In all cases it would had the biggest impact in my gameplay if only I am immune for 3 to 5 seconds when exiting IB or make that shield impregnable for 5 seconds. That would increase IB’s damage over time and allow Moze to dish out more damage.

By the way I was using Sapper in that TTD run with Splash rolls

You should try vanilla vanquisher pods.

Lol that took me a while to relate. I get it now :grinning:


Yeah but I was testing the buffed ones though

Edit: Oh dual Vanquisher. Ok let me try that

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