The Problem with MOZE

Hi, I dont know if this belong to general topics or Moze the gunner but I think this is the right place to post it. Probably Moze players can give a better insight.

I wanted to share my thoughts about a current issue im having with Moze, this being SURVAVILITY. so i decided to compile every single skill that’s related to HEALTH REGEN for each vault hunter.

the reason i made this comparision is because i often play online and my character is constantly in FFYL mode so my teammates who dont play Moze often have to stop what theyre doing to revive me. But the opposite scenario is rare. So i started asking why?.

And surprise surprise or not so much, the lack of this kind of effect in Moze’ skill tree is abysmal not necesarily comparing it with the other VH but for itself.

Not only this but the fact that VAMPYR is so far into the demo woman tree, making it really difficult to have any kind of build diversity while having survavility at the same time BUT this skill being the only one related to heath regen.

Theres another skill that can be compared to VAMPYR , ITS Tenacious Defense: (Whenever Moze’s shield is fully depleted, she instantly restores a portion of her shield, and her Gun Damage is increased for a short time. This skill can only trigger after Moze’s shields have fully recharged). But this is the capstone of the Shield of Retribution tree (+25 points to activate it) and how are you suppose to restore all your shield when all the skills before this one are about increasing it reaching numbers like 20k-40k with no other skills synergising with it and when the main mod of this tree (bloodletter was nerfed with +150 recharge delay and -50 delay) guess we could use transformer and shock damage but there are plenty of other shields that i want to use too.

Or in order to have some survavility spec full into SoR tree (25 points) and Vampyr (+15) leaving 8 points to spend wherever you want.

Allow me to say that VAMPYR is also an ACTIVE skill, it requires you to constantly throw grenades and this grenades have to hit the nemies in order to restore health, good luck if you dont have a homing mod or your aiming its not great, while many of the other VH skills are mostly passive or semi passive, constanlty regen health, heal for gun damage elemental damage or by killing an enemy or similar actions.

i didnt go in depth into shield regen skills cause Moze doesnt have many of those besides Tenacious defense and full can of whoop ass. And problaby should add Iron bear shield and heath skill but I wanted to focus only on Moze’s.


Tier 4 skills (+15 points into the DEMO WOMAN skill tree)

Vampyr: Whenever Moze damages an enemy with a grenade, for every enemy hit, she restores a portion of her missing health. At 5/5 it restores 20%!!! of missing health per enemy hit. this skill was triple nerfed a few weeks ago. (not directly)


Tier 1 skills (+0 points into the skill tree)

  1. Clarity: Amara constantly regenerates health. The lower her health, the more powerful the regeneration.

Tier 2 skills (+5 points into the skill tree)

  1. Samsara: Whenever Amara deals damage to an enemy with her Action Skill, she adds a stack of Samsara. For every stack of Samsara, Amara gains increased Gun Damage and Health Regeneration fora few seconds. Stacks decay after a few seconds.

  2. Soul Sap: A portion of all damage dealt by Amara’s Action Skill is returned to her or a nearby ally as health.

Tier 5 skills (+20 points into the skill tree)

  1. Sustainment: Amara gains Life Steal whenever she deals Elemental Damage with her weapon.


Tier 2 skills (+5 points into the skill tree)

  1. Dannybrook: Whenever Zane kills an enemy ,he and his Digi-Clone receive increased Gun Damage and gain Health Regeneration for a few seconds.

  2. Rise to the Occasion: Zane gains Health Regeneration. The lower his shield is, the higher the bonus. While Zane’s shields are full, he does not receive any health regeneration.

Tier 3 Skills (+10 points into the skill tree)

  1. Nanites or Some ■■■■■: Zane and his allies gain Health Regeneration, increased Reload Speed, and greatly improved Shield Recharge Delay while near his Barrier. The lower their health, the more health is regenerated.
  2. Salvation: after killing an enemy, Zanes weapon gain life steal

Tier 5 skills (+20 points into the skill tree)

  1. Refreshment: Whenever Zane damages a frozen enemy with his weapon, he gains some of that damage back as health.

  2. Calm, Cool, Collected: Whenever Zane Freezes an enemy, his shield instantly begins recharging. If Zane’s shields are already full, he regenerates health for a few seconds. If Zane’s health is already full, his Action Skill Cooldowns and Durations are immediately reset.


Tier 1 skills (+0 points into the skill tree)

Pet Skill

  1. Spiderant Centurion - FL4K is joined by a loyal Spiderant companion, which will cause FL4K to constantly regenerate health. Hold F to issue an Attack Command, which will cause the Spiderant to charge into enemies.

Action Skill

  1. Fade Away - FL4K cloaks, turning invisible. FL4K can fire 3 shots while cloaked, and each shot is automatically a Critical Hit. While cloaked, FL4K has increased Movement Speed and Health Regeneration.

  2. Self-Repairing System - FL4K’s Maximum Health is increased, and they constantly regenerate health.

Tier 2 skills (+5 points into the skill tree)

  1. Who Rescued Who? - Whenever FL4K’s Pet deals damage, FL4K regenerates health for a few seconds. Whenever FL4K deals damage to an enemy, their Pet’s health is restored for a portion of the damage dealt.

Tier 3 Skills

  1. Falconer’s Feast - When FL4K’s Rakk damage an enemy, a portion of FL4K’s health is restored.

  2. Spiderant Scorcher - FL4K’s Spiderant evolves into a Scorcher, occasionally dealing Incendiary Damage to all enemies nearby. While accompanied by the Scorcher, FL4K constantly regenerates health and gains Elemental Resistance.

  3. Turn Tail And Run - While moving, FL4K constantly regenerates health and gains Damage Reduction. While still, FL4K gains Gun Damage and Fire Rate.

Tier 4 skills (+15 points into the skill tree)

  1. Spiderant Countess - FL4K’s Spiderant evolves into a Countess, which will cause FL4K to constantly regenerate health and gain Damage Reduction. When FL4K issues an Attack Command, the Countess will burrow underground and then emerge dealing Corrosive Damage in an area.

  2. Until You Are Dead - The Health Regeneration and Movement Speed of Fade Away persists for a short time after the skill has ended.

Tier 5 skills (+20 points into the skill tree)

  1. Rage And Recover - Kill Skill. After killing an enemy, FL4K and FL4K’s pet regenerate health for a few seconds.

  2. Burst Aid - After using Gamma Burst, the Rift remains for the duration of the skill. While standing near the Rift, FL4K and their allies rapidly Regenerate Health.

FINAL TOUGHTS: Moze’s lack of health/shield regen skills and VAMPYR being so far into the blue tree not only decreases survavility but build diversity too.


MOZE’S HEALTH REGEN AND SHIELD REGEN SKILLS: 1 and 2 respectively.^(moze dead)




Edit: grammar.

  1. My intention to add other VH health regen skills was not to make it look like the more you have the tankier your character is. This is not my opinion at all. Probably some of this skills are wasted points or maybe they dont work, i really dont know.
    The only thing i wanted to demonstrate is how many options other characters have compared to MOZE.
  2. Im not asking for nerfs to VAMPYR, BLOODLETTER AND MoD to be reverted but the fact that they were nerfed only exacerbated a problem that has been there since day 1 and now that M4 is a thing just make it even worse.
    3.I appreciate all the feedback, seems like most of the VH here, see the this issue the same way that i do.
  3. And many of you added some greats points in others areas that dont work in the most efficient way or they are poorly thought or designed. (specially you Click Click)
    i didnt wanted to expand on other issues i see in Moze skill tree cause i think there are more capable people here in this forum that can make a proper deconstruction of each of Moze’s aspects.

I really like Moze and i dont think that ill be switching to another character anytime soon. im hopping that GB is aware of all the discontent that many of us have and make the right call when they address them.

Sorry for bad english, not my main language.


Yea this about sums up why Moze is trash and people have to abuse things like Lvl 1 Stop Gap and Throwing Shock guns at their feet with a Transformer on Moze…meanwhile Amara is rarely below half hp because she actually has regen


Should maybe note that fl4k only has 4 actual skills, and a choice of 2 of the others clumping them all together can create bias. As well - adding them all together arent as potent as vampyr on its own.
I play both, have all of what i can chose for fl4k and still less survivable than moze with vampyr; but I do definately agree she needs another choice or 2


Yeah you get it, pairing transformer plus auto shock damge with 40k shield may sound tanky but it’s really not, and constantly shooting yourself I would like to think that it’s not the way the game was meant to be played and it’s not fun either.
My main issue it’s the lack of diversity that specting into vampyr offers to Moze players in order to have some kind of survavility.

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Yeah, I dont know much about Flaks skill tree, i didnt want to sound like he is unkillable which he is not, theres a reason why many people named it Glass Cannon.
I may have messed up his skill with augments and action skills. Sorry about that.
But I just write them down to make a point same as Zane’s and Amara’s skills.

Yes i understand that, could also mention fll4ks “lick the wounds” and amaras “guardian angel” as they are revive options which add to survivability
Edit - about Zane i didnt know, havent gotten around to creating him yet


And dont forget about Zane’s OLD-U. Such useful skills. Some have their gimmicks but at least it’s a “free” second wind.
Why my Moze cant have one of those, I’m tired of being revive by my teammates. Lol

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While Fl4k has 11 skills, except Burst Aid, the other 10 combined are weaker than Sustainment, Salvation and Vampyr alone XD.

But on topic, I do think Moze is not in the best place right now, and that’s because I feel she is just not as well thought-out as the other 3 classes (Yes, even Zane). Its not like she doesn’t have strong skills - but it often feels like she is trapped rather than enhanced by her specialisations. A large problem with that is because the BM and the DW trees are just not very good, and the SoR tree while much better in conceptualization, is very flawed in execution.

Bottomless Mags is widely considered her worst tree, and not without reason. Beyond the first 3 tiers, which are some of the best 3 tiers in the game, the rest of the skill tree is just a bunch of niche skills. But that isn’t the big problem - the issue is how questionable it is to have an entire skill tree built around not reloading. That would be cool if the net result of the tree means almost every weapon doesn’t reload - but often times the synergy is with weapons with medium to large size mags, you know, the weapons that don’t reload alot anyway. Amara’s Dread is generally superior to Forge + Redis + CoL, and far less clunky. Leave no Trace may have been nerfed to the ground, but is still far more valuable because it can actually massively extend the mags of guns that benefit of it. The nail in the coffin is the skill tree doesn’t actually reward you for having a ‘bottomless’ mag, making it an empty gimmick that doesn’t actually contribute to field performance that much.

Demolition Woman was always toeing the line between being bad and supremely overpowered. Pre-release, I had marked it out as Moze’s weakest skill tree - until of course it got completely busted by the beam grenades and became her best. Then those things took a hit and now its in a bad place again. The flaw of the tree is very similar to BM - the skills don’t build on one another and more importantly, barring PtHP the ENTIRE skill tree doesn’t actually buff any splash damage or grenade damage, forcing you to ride on SoR or BM for DPS. But I do think the biggest nail in the coffin is the fact that grenades just aren’t that good at M4 as your primary damage source.

Shield of Retribution is easily Moze most interesting skill tree, and I really love the idea and design of it. The whole Risk-Reward of Thin Red Line and the momentum based gameplay it encourages is great, but the execution is flawed. The crux of it is this: take away the Bloodletter and the incentive for the entire gimmick of ‘no health all shields’ is +108% gun damage at best. That may seem like a hefty amount - until you realize all Moze has is additive gun damage anyway, making this boost decent but not defining. There needs to be a much greater reward - not necessarily DPS mind you, for such a playstyle. This skilltree could really take a leaf from Krieg’s Hellborn or Athena’s Ceraunic Storm skill tree.

TLDR: Moze has some of the most interesting gimmicks in the game, but because the reward for these gimmicks is so limited, they remain gimmicks rather than develop into a fully fledged playstyle.


Your best options are a Recharger or Big Boom Blaster.

Vampyr was only nerfed once. They removed the interactions for beam grenades.

You also forgot Force Feedback, a skill that completely deactivates when you take any damage.

I’ve made two threads in the past. One was to switch Vampyr with Mark of Destruction and buff MoD a little. Most people were split on that option. The other thread was to change Force Feedback to be like Axtons Able skill. This would let it work with health builds or with shield builds. It was also kept far down the tree to be a strong healing skill and give options for those that wise to ignore Demo Woman. Most people were split and didn’t understand how 10% is not op. Even when others and myself broke down the math.

Most Moze players don’t want options it seems. They just was to spam grenades and have it work with beam grenades.


I just want to add that these are also options available to other vault hunters who also have superior regen abilities when compared to Moze.

Yes, you are correct, but Moze has received two major nerfs to her survivability. The second one being to the Bloodletter Class Mod, “increased the recharge delay by 150% and reduced the recharge Rate by 50%”. GB stated that they wanted healing to be manual and not automatic, but the only way to manually heal through Moze’s skill tree is by using Vampyr which, as we already discussed, is greatly nerfed. To my knowledge, no other vault hunter has received so many nerfs to survivalablity.

I am a little tired of people constantly stating this. While that might be true for some players, that is not true for all of us. Moze has a serious problem right now trying to survive outside of IB. I am not the only Moze player struggling with this. I would like to see GB add at least one more regen ability in perhaps, the bottomless mags skill tree. I think this would allow for more build diversity and would give us another option outside of Vampyr.


I haven’t seen anyone else state that and it was the first time I made that statement. When I threw around ideas and made a few threads for well thought out options, the most common response was this individual wanted Vampyr to go back to healing 20% every half second for an unlimited amount of time. Gearbox Isn’t going to change it back and people need to accept that. Yes we need more options, but it seems many people here don’t want that and instead want Vampyr to be OP like it was.

Also never go to the sub Reddit for this game. That’s basically all you see.

That’s just 1 issue another big issue she has imo is she doesnt have enough flat damage increasing skills and really doesnt benefit from ASE skills she also SUCKS of the enemy isnt flesh or has too much shield or armor health. Shes amazing for fire dmg but like that’s it she sucks soooo hard in maliwan takedown tbh her damage becomes very weak from lack of just pure damage multipliers and its filled with just damage additives


OK, point taken. I see this comment “Moze players just want to stand in one place and spam grenades” quite often this forum. I think it makes an unfair assumption about Moze players and ignores the possibility that there might be a problem with Moze. I think if GB would add healing/regen elsewhere in the skill trees, it will make the vampyr skill less important, but perhaps I am the one making an incorrect assumption.


And people wonder why every Moze pretty much runs Tediore Chucking…honestly it seems like 20 minutes of thought was put into Moze’s skills


Wouldn’t it be nice to change the incendiary boost to a different element with an augment swap like Amara? Idk


Ironically, after the latest patch, without tedior or gigantic rocket spam weirdness builds, you’re stuck with Ironbear damage once every 2 minutes.

Bought myself Moby dick the other day and I read it while hiding from Kraken morters until IB comes back up. Decent book, long read, lots of details, but I have time now, so that’s a plus.


Yea Iron Bear is great but his cooldown is absurd…meanwhile Amara literally gets phasegrasp in like 5 seconds and can use it while its cooling down


Amara can also spam phakegrasping with no cooldown. I’m ok with that. I was also ok with the Moze beam grenade spam. At least it wasn’t tediore chucking. But now that I’m locked into that playstyle with her, my biggest issue is with ammo consumption … at least until I find that ever elusive cutpurse deathless.

Moze needs some serious rework on survivability. I didn’t realize how bad it was until you laid it out like that. So every character gets multiple healing/regen skills and augments, and Moze gets grenades … which don’t always work that well. And which don’t do a whole lot when trying to heal up a 40-80k shield since they are based on a health percentage. A ~1500 point heal added to 40-80k shield is piddly crap. Maybe make the bloodletter alter vampyr to use 20% of max shield instead. That would be useful.

Edit: Realized it’s not from max, but remaining health. That makes it even worse. Only way to get reliable sustain from that is with a 1hp build … at 20% remaining, you will never fully heal with that skill? WTF Gearbox?


Zane main here - old u doesn’t work as advertised.

Zane’s barrier is his best defense and someone that understands a good CCC build is almost untouchable.

Moze really should have more options for health regen. I have a bottomless mags/bearcat/vampyr build that doesn’t go down, but if I want survivability the only other option is to use IB as an o’ s@@t escape or transformer/shock myself.

After Zane, Moze is the VH that needs the most love from Gearbox.


Good points, really.

Imo, both Shield of Retribution and Bottomless Mags are ruined by one skill each: Force Feedback and Click, Click…
Both of them are right before the Capstone and add nothing to the tree playstyle.
Force Feedback should function like Quick Charge, where your shield doesnt stop recharging after taking damage through the skill duration. Having the skill to scale with shield capacity would be better than with Max health, as Phalanx Doctrine keep increasing Moze shield capacity. Scaling it with health would be worst, as its max value is a lot less than the shield after all skill/gear boosting.
About Click, Click… it should be kinda the opposite: increasing the damage as much as your mag is full. Bottomless Mags is about keeping your mag at the top and not at the bottom for what I can tell, so having it scale with empty mags is… weird at best. Or make it like the Blast Master COM gimmick and increase the damage as long as you dont reload. Or fire rate. Maybe both? :sweat_smile:

Demolition Woman is more delicate to change imo. The key to what is missing is a grenade mod that is actually made to kill end game content. Even the Fastball is lacking.
Seems like the skills are there just to support the other trees: Pull the Holy Pin procs critical related skills and gear like Redistribution, Experimental Munitions and the Mind Sweeper COM while Means os Destruction is there to help with ammo regen. Vampyr is the icing on the cake of grenade utility, granting survivability.
Without the Blaster Master COM, Demolition Woman doesnt even boost damage outside of the secondary explosions from the Capstone and Fire in the Skag Den.
Beam grenades and Vampyr is a hard to balance combination imo. I think they should work together but 20% for every tick is a lot. Maybe giving the skill different values for AoE and impact could balance it? Maybe half the value for AoE, like they did for Iron Bear?