The Problem with MOZE

First a few things to add to the original post:

  1. Sustain perks should ALLWAYS be on the first two tiers, with the added bonus top tier sustain from a tree that focuses on tankiness.

  2. Shields are useless if you dont abuse vampyr and bloodletter, shield regen is non existent, and even if you manage to achieve some decent regen you are constantly being hit and the regen stops for an eternity.

So apart from that, Moze’s tanikess is just fine for me, im using vampyr and im going for a healh build, i make great use of the health gate and regen from grenades, but if you dont take vampyr you only have 1 other option to stay alive, the shield of retribution capstone, but wait, that capstone doesnt synergise with the whole tree behind it because if you dont have health you lose the health gate and you instantly go into FFYL as soon as your shields deplete, so the capstone is just giving you gun damage in FFYL, basically a huge flaw in design, the capstone must be reworked to add an artificial shield gate, and the whole tree needs to specialize in shield regen instead of INSANE GUN DAMAGE, like what?.. shield of retribution? its just gun damage all over the tree.

Apart from all this there is one thing i think is worth mentioning… it seems like everyone forgets about how to play carefully as soon as you reach endgame content, you can allways cover, or run, or just play safe, there is no need to stay in the middle of the warzone doing dmg and expecting to be alive. Playing it safe like a normal fps i succeded with my health moze build, but i aknowledge the fact that the design is flawed and we need more meaningfull and pasive regeneration, for both shields and health.

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This is only true for big shields and bloodlater. If you use a big Blaster, for example, its regeneration allows you to literally be on the battlefield with a permanent shield. The only problem is that it’s a measly 10K shield(if you invest enough in the shield tree) that literally goes away in a second. So you’re only partially right.

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you can actually boost the big boom blaster up to 20-25k. If you get the 75% annointment on it it could probably push 40k

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I have no issues with Moze atm. There are 3 distinct paths you can take that are clearer than before.

The bloodletter/shield tree makes you tanky as heck, but you do less damage. That makes sense to me. You are able to spec in the shield tree till the capstone and still have 22 points left, which is enough to get to vampyre. You do less damage, which makes sense to me, because you chose to pick the tank class.

The demo chica with splash damage mod heals you a ton and you can spec into the Green tree for more damage and ammo/grenade return. If you go extra fuel and armor mod, your IB turns into a monster and is up a ton because of the action skill bonus and can facetank a crapton of damage because of vampyre.

Endless bullets of doom can go either way.

Of all the classes I feel like Moze is in the most balanced place in BL3. I don’t feel like she is OP anymore with the vampyre nerf, and she is not a rock when bloodletter was the meta. You have to make choices and adjust your gameplay now, instead of standing in front of enemies and Nuking them.

Comparing Moze, in my opinion, to the other characters is moot. I’m not playing them. Granted they need work, but if you feel like another class is better, roll with it.

I have found a distinct difference in builds while playing the M4 storyline again. When I went bloodletter, I couldn’t kill anything as fast. I lived longer, but the damage was down. So I ran through some builds to get the max damage I could possibly get and I am succeeding in the game. I have found I have to be smarter in my gameplay. Lol I have gotten cocky and ended up surrounded by a bunch of enemies, only to get melted, as I should have. Annoited aren’t as annoying. And…the loots are insane. Añnnñd!!! I’m having a blast! Or dying to one.

Anyways. Just my 2 cents. Anyone interested in what I’m running, hit me up.

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Mozes tank tree (the red tree) is where most of her gun damage bonuses come from. So it’s her tank AND her damage tree but it doesn’t have any good sustain options or ammo regen options.

So you’re forced to go green tree to help with ammo consumption which is a real problem in m4 or you have to go down the blue tree to pick up vampyr to keep yourself alive

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I use a relic with regen, 149 sec. Most times its not enough. Sometimes i will put on a differant com with 149regen and +3 to vampire which im not speced in but at least still get the bonus. I also use transfusion grenades, moxxies bouncing pair at the moment. It sucks that im limited on relics and coms and grenades. If she had just 1 passive regen it would open many more builds for her. Now i run aa sor and bm build and without the healing gear her survivability sucks. Especially when i get the mahem -sheild regen- delay and health regen.

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Just for reference.





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Moze is my favourite VH and will always be my main in BL3 but as much as I lean towards her, I must concede that her skill trees are flawed as hell. What doesn’t make sense to me, is that most of her skills give such basic stat increases which you could easily mimic with gear alone. In fact they’re so basic that they don’t amount to much in total, at least not at M4 end game, and they don’t really help distinguish Moze as a VH who stands out from the others.

Even when she has Iron Bear for an action skill, the fact that it can have a cooldown period of up to 2 minutes makes it difficult for her to carve out her own unique identity within the pack, simply because the other 3 vault hunters can distinguish themselves in their own respective ways by virtue of enjoying way more frequent usage of their own action skills. Because Iron Bear is subject to lengthy periods of downtime, this makes it a requirement for Moze to be more self-sufficient outside of her action skill than the others, meaning she really needs her skill trees to bring more to the table than those of the other vault hunters.

The design of the Bottomless Mags skill tree is questionable as hell in my mind. There are numerous flaws with it, including Click Click which has already been mentioned. But it’s not just one or two skills alone that are the issue; anyone who wants to invest a hefty chunk of points into that tree, is likely doing so for ammo regeneration and magazine size.

Redistribution is one of my favourite Moze skills and it’s fantastic that it’s available at tier 2, but you can also get a class mod to buff it by +1 and get yourself 10% ammo regen - 6 skill points spent instead of 26, to get the same ammo regen as Redistribution + Forge and thus make the capstone redundant. And why should I spend 20 points just to maximise The Iron Bank for 35% mag size increase, when I can get a class mod or relic at lvl 50 which yields a passive bonus of 40% and saves me more skill points in the process? Such is the design of Bottomless Mags that if you find the right gear to give you the same bonuses or better, you can invalidate the latter half of the skill tree entirely. Any vault hunter can get ammo regen from terror-anointed gear as well.

Demolition Woman - For a tree that’s half grenades/splash damage and half Iron Bear, there are a hell of a lot of conditions involved in reaping the scant rewards. As already mentioned, you’re only getting splash damage increases from one tier 1 skill and the capstone, and Moze’s sole health restoration skill is down at tier 4. But other skills really don’t add a great deal to Moze’s arsenal. Iron Bear’s cooldown skills are gulity of this - they’re either so temporary and/or conditional in terms of activity that you’d be better off with a constant passive bonus for cooldown from a class mod or relic instead of wasting your skill points on them.

Means of Destruction is a very popular skill but even that can be negated by gear. The ammo regen you can easily get from the BM tree or a terror build, and wearing a BBB shield means your grenade replenishment rate is jacked up to 60% chance just for sustaining damage which in itself, is something that happens more frequently than you dealing splash damage let alone splash damage actually triggering a 6% chance of regenerating a grenade. I run with a BBB shield on my Moze with zero points in MoD, and I never run out of grenades.

Shield of Retribution is perhaps the one skill tree that makes more sense than the others, and yet it has its issues. There is nothing that offers simple (non-elemental) multiplicative damage that applies to everything which at least all other vault hunters have. Instead, there are just numerous gun damage skills, a significant proportion of which are momentum-based in that they require kills to accumulate. Thin Red Line is a good skill, but anyone can mimic that just by wearing a Front Loader.

Behind the Iron Curtain’s bonuses are so low for a tier 4 skill that it begs the question what Gearbox were thinking when they devised it. They made a skill tree where the shield factor is predominantly about boosting max capacity, but an ever-increasing capacity means that the overall efficiency of the shield’s recharge rate will constantly decrease the more stacks you accumulate for Phalanx Doctrine. Force Feedback is usurped by a GR perk which doesn’t demand a critical kill and Tenacious Defence seriously lacks synergy with the rest of the tree for a capstone.

Amara has a range of 11 action skills to choose from and skills like Mindfulness, Guardian Angel, Remnant and Indiscriminate. Fl4k has 9 pets, 3 action skills and skills such as The Power Inside, Megavore and a whole variety of skills with multiplicative damage on the menu. And Zane has 3 action skills and gets skills such as Brain Freeze, CCC, Playing Dirty and can also enjoy kill skills without always having to land kills to trigger them.

But Moze? She has just the one action skill with the longest cooldown, with a variety of hardpoints where some are superior to others by night and day. Now that’s not to say I’m bashing Moze for that; I appreciate what Gearbox did by making each character different not just with the action skills but in how they function as well.

However, if you look at her skill trees in isolation, her one biggest strength which can’t be replicated by other vault hunters is increasing shield capacity, that’s it. You could’ve added stacks of additive gun damage to that incredibly brief list too before Gearbox gifted Amara the Spiritual Driver. When Iron Bear is on cooldown, Moze’s unique identity amounts to being a walking turtle shield. The problem with Moze extends beyond just lack of sustain skills, I fear.

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Can I give this post all of the likes, because this is straight facts right here

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Hmm ok I am going to speak my mind as someone who did their first 50 with moze and then learnes the other characters to 50.

Imo the survivability of the characters ranks as

1.amara
2.moze
3.zane
4.flak

Apart from flak all hunters have healing options based on their ability to hit enemies, being either %per hit or % of damage dealt.

Amara has the most options, passive regens and always on % of damage

Zane has similar options but has to either have a kill or freeze an enemy for them to work

Flak has nothing but regen skills, some of which are situational and no real burst healing.

Moze has the fewest options but vampyr works off of IBs explosive chaingun as well as grenades and is as good at healing at times as amaras various. Also no target conditions, these heals are always active.

I should point out that infinite grenade spam moze is still a thing and some grenades still grant multiple heals per toss. Ghast calls for example heal on each skull. It can add up very fast under constant spam still. Also you have a good amount of IFrames when summoning iron bear, which lasts about 1 sec into actually using iron bear so it is enough to get yourself out of almost any situation.

So, tho moze has the fewest options i still think she has the second best survivability option to amaras elemental healing. A single point in vampyr with grenade spam is pretty significant healing and you can get it from a com.

Zane being depending on a status or having a kill means he cannot really out heal damage vs some bosses. Flak relies entirely on hot stacking and cannot get to the same levels without focusing the entire build on hot stacking.

Look, i know dealing with changes and nerfs is frustrating but a “why do abc when d used to be better” mindset gets boring.

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Great post.

I think the borderline broken pre-nerf tesla/beam interaction with MoD, PtHP, and Vampyr also effectively masked the otherwise poor bonuses/design of her skills, which are now more apparent (especially with the introduction of M4).

The combination of her skills, weak character-specific annointments, and 2 minute long base cooldown on her action skill ultimately put her in an unfavorable position.

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So you invest heavily on a tree to be tanky and have just 10k shield and the only way to regen that is to pick up shield boosters from the ground ? that doesnt sound practical, its like saying you can allways regen your shield if you hide from battle long enough

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Moze has some really weird weaknesses that I don’t quite understand how they could come through the whole development process.

  • Borderlands 3 is designed to be a game for a big audience, so there should at least be early options for comfort, i.e. health regen. Having passive healing early on is calming for some people
  • After the debacle that was BL2’s healthgate one could have expected to have more healing options, but Moze doesn’t have those, as stated above
  • the healing she has is either late in a tree, doesn’t heal her health or is even just non-existent (the Bottomless Mags tree as a whole)

Now it’s hard to just get rid off all those problems, but here would be my suggestions just off of the top of my head:

  • create a legendary COM that gives her health regen according to half of her ammo regen. That way she could have up to 7,5% of her total health regenerated per second, which is quite potent, but not broken
  • Rushin’ Offensive could regenerate 2% of max health per second while running; small bonus, big impact
  • Give Torgue Cross-Promotion health regen for a short time after inflicting splash damage; at 5/5 points a 3% health regen for 5 seconds after inflicting splash damage would already make a big difference
  • Make Force Feedback a kill skill on all kills that grants a health regen of 3,33% per second for 5 seconds and if her health can’t be regenerated further she instead regens shield at three times the rate (10% of total shield capacity per second); this would make this skill worthy of a tier 5 skill, especially for Thin Red Line builds! I chose the short duration deliberately as it would force the player to stay aggressive.

What I suggested could for the most part all just be added to the current skills (except Force Feedback, which needs a rework anyway), wouldn’t make them too strong and even keep their identity intact.

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Moze gets shafted harder than all other vault hunters when it comes to the majority of the anointment bonuses. I’ve heard from a few people that the bonuses which last ‘for a short time’ after ASE is around 10 seconds. Those plus the new bonuses for shields and grenades where you get 50% bonus elemental damage for 10 seconds after ASE, are not much use to a VH who sometimes has to wait up to 2 minutes for her AS to be ready again.

Hell, even the new grenade anointment, the one that seems almost tailor-made for Moze, where tossing one gives you bonus gun damage, grenade damage and AS damage for 6 seconds, can’t be fully appreciated as it takes a few seconds to enter Iron Bear and you can’t throw grenades while inside to reap the bonus AS damage.

And what I find funny (especially because it’s a weird scenario which the other vault hunters don’t experience) is that Moze’s anointment where you don’t consume ammo for 5 seconds after exiting Iron Bear, is yet another means of gear removing the need to invest 21 skill points to obtain Some for the Road. If you’re an avid user of Torgue Quickies or other heavy weapons and you find a drop with that specific anointment, you may as well respec and save your points.

On the flip side though, she’s the best VH ( by a slight margin) for 50% bonus elemental damage in the next 2 magazines after ASE as she has the skills to keep those bonuses going forever. But when you consider Amara’s ‘phakegrasp’ and Fl4k’s Rakk Attack charges and Zane being able to juggle two different action skills, then you realise that they can enjoy those bonuses even if they have to reload because their cooldown periods are not as prolonged, it’s not like Moze is suddenly the brightest beacon of them all.

I would love to see Gearbox address the issues with Moze, her skill trees and anointment bonuses, but even if they were to attempt it and successfully carry it out (which is unlikely,) it would take a very long time to see it through.

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Oh ■■■■, that sounds awesome. I support that idea.

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Moze is the second most shafted VH after Zane. His most successful build is a CCC build that wants both action skills to be up. His best damage dealing skills are conditional, one of which wants both action skills to be up so he can deal most damage. Meaning if you let the action skill lapse to take advantage of an ase anointment you are losing out on up to 40% damage on a 10/5 boosted synchronicity. You are always losing something with Zane.

I could go on, but Moze at least has some unconditional damage boosts. She needs some love, but compared to Zane she is better off. Especially after Iron Bear got improved, I used it to decent effect in Cistern of Slaughter M4. May not live up in the slaughter shaft, but it’s not garbage like before.

Both Moze and Zane make little use of ASE annointments and it would be nice to see something that these characters could make use of.

When I played Moze it was pretty clear she had no healing. It took some getting used to her. It would be nice if there was some healing in the bottomless mag tree to give her options, particular in the first or second tier. Modify scrappy and that would be good, a modest heal based on magazine full percentage or something.

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Glad to see people liking my ideas. The class mod wouldn’t be a perfect idea though as there is a very high variance between the lowest regeneration rate and the highest. The base would be 2,5% when only Forge is active, but with anointments it’s easy enough to see 10% and more of healing per second. Also, hitting crits is essential as we get up to 10% ammo regen (= 5% health regen) from Redistribution that way. For obvious reasons I accounted for Redistribution being one of the skills the class mod can boost. Other skills could be Scorching RPM’s and Armored Infantry to have a good combination of offense and defense, but The Iron Bank would make sense as well.

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I didn’t find Ghost grenades all that sustainable. Since the nerf I have not found a grenade that gives me reliable healing with vampyr and I am fully specd in that ability. There is a purple grenade that people say works very well with vampyr , but I have yet to get my hands on one. The only thing I have found that gives me any kind of sustainability is the transfusion grenades. I wonder why I am even specd into that ability because I don’t need vampyr with transfusion grenades. As a regen skill, vampyr stinks, but I keep hoping I will eventually find a grenade I can use with that skill.

I also play Zane and I think Zane’s regen skills are vastly superior to Moze. I’ve been amazed with how fast Zane can regen his health. Since the Moze nerf I have found myself playing Zane more and more because Moze is a constant source of frustration for me.

If said COM doesn’t boost Redistribution, which I think is boosted enough with Blast Master and Mind Sweeper, then even the 5% from half of Redistribution and Forge is good. As long as it boosts good DPS skills then it would be a good COM.

Sorry to jump in here, but mind sweeper mod is just so goddamn beautiful for mobbing, especially if you use a masher like the Maggie.

Okay carry on.

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