The Problems with endgame Moze builds

I commented on the recent patch, and the more I thought about it the more I wanted to do a break down of what seems to be the most prevalent, end-game, Moze build.
I’m gonna bring up some issues as I see them, and please, if anyone has builds or gear that get around them or fix them, please let me know!

So, they say in the patch that the Bloodletter class mod is “creating overwhelming synergies”
From my experience, using the SoR skill tree without a Bloodletter mod does not feel nearly as fun, and not using the SoR skill tree really torpedoes your surviveability in Mayhem 3.
Moze is the only vault hunter to have a skill tree with no healing skills (looking at you Bottomless Mags) and no healing action skill augments.

Vampyr is Moze’s ONLY skill that returns health during combat.
And without a Bloodletter mod, Vampyr and Thin Red Line are ANTI-synergistic.
Additionally, she only has three skills that can give back shields while she’s taking damage: Full Can of Whoop-Ass, Force Feedback, and Tenacious Defense.
FCoWA: Requires getting into Paper Mache Bear
FF: Only works on critical kills, so won’t proc to grenades or dots
TD: Requires full investment into SoR and won’t proc again unless you got back up to full first.

Basically, every other VH seems to have better shield and health regen options than Moze (except for maybe FL4K? Your opinion I suppose).
Ready for Action (1st tier) : +30%SRR, -40%SRD
Quick Breather (3rd tier) : Immediate shield regen on clone swap
Has multiple health regen skills
Has a Life Steal skill in 2nd tier (gun damage)
Can get free second wind skill with clone
Has skill to just ignore bullets
Has two health regen skills
Two Lifesteal skills (Gun Damage / Action Skill damage)
Has a free second wind skill
Has a 60% dmg reduction skill
Has multiple health regen skills (I think the most health regen options out of anyone if I’m counting correctly)
Only lifesteal seems to be an Augment for Rakk Attack
Skill to let his pet revive him
To Compare:
Behind the Iron Curtain (4th tier) : +21%SRR, -24%SRD
Force Feedback (5th tier) : Immediate shield regen on critical kill
Has no skills with health regen.
Only lifesteal is Vampyr
Get one free partial shield recharge on shield break

Gearbox, you want us to use builds other than a Bloodletter Deathless Vampyr spamming grenades? Then please, please, give us other viable options for the late game.

Blaster Master and Mind Sweeper mods are fun, but not when you run into 3 anointed enemies that won’t drop their shields and the whole “kill them before they kill you” strategy falls apart. Or not being able to see who is killing you because four badasses are all spamming rockets at you and all you can see is the wall of explosions.
Rocketeer and Bear Trooper mods might be fun if Iron Bear actually lived up to it’s name occasionally.

So please, Gearbox, before you come out and whack Bloodletter Grenade Moze with the nerf bat everyone is expecting, please let us know what you want us to do instead :heart::heart::heart:


There are at the very least a few other options to replenish shields aside Bloodletter. For example Transformer + Electric Grenades/Splash or Transfusion grenades.

Then we can have absolutely hysterical shield amounts way higher than any other VH, I currently run with 52k shield in before Phalanx, that’s a good 2-3 times the life+shield combined other VHs have.

And finally Iron Bear is effectively a complete invulnerability skill, in addition to providing 2 iframes on entry and exit, it itself comes with more HP/Shield value other VHs have.

We really have plenty of options when it comes to survivability, some might not be straightforward, but some are hysterically amazing. Yes, Vampyr+Deathless+Bloodletter.

Anointed are easy to take down with the bottomless mags tree, just one for the road and spam your favorite heavy weapon.

Do agree about the the lack of variety in legendary coms though; Bloodletter and Blaster Master lead to interesting builds. To fix Trooper, I would have it give a huge buff to IB HP and damage. To fix Rocketeer, I’d buff the “X while Auto Bear is active” anointed effects – 8% ammo regen or 20% bonus damage just aren’t enough.

Yes, Bottomless Mags tree does need a life regen skill. I think they should get ride of Dokka Bear( because i personally think it’s useless )and move Specialist Bear in it’s place, then put a 1 point skill in SB’s place that would work like Redistribution, critical hits give 5% life regen for 3 seconds only they should stack 3 times.

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Redistribution should also make it so that every time Moze regenerates ammo or makes a free shot by any means she has a chance to spawn a heal pack.

Or just activating some health regen, doesn’t have to be a health pack.
Really, the way her trees are set up, her best survival mode requires a bloodletter and vampyr. Her SoR tree doesn’t feel sufficient by itself to sustain her in end game.
Sure you can do a shock/transformer build, but any VH can do that.

There should really be a Bottomless Mags skill that regens her shield the longer she fires without reloading.

I find it no problem end game outside of her mech is useless, unless its a get out of being knocked

Either i get melted, run out of fuel in 2 seconds or not doing any damage

But her ability to not run out of ammo is priceless… i can fire some guns for days…

Amara doesn’t have 60% damage reduction skill, it’s 40%, and one of her health regen skills doesn’t stack properly with many action skills, which is require to proc it.

But I do agree with the post, Moze needs more ways to sustain health/shields.

The shield regen skill in SoR needs to be looked at. Unlike Axton’s Quick Charge from BL2, it’s easily interrupted by any incoming fire and is made redundant once you get the Guardian skill that does the same thing in a normal kill instead of a critical one.

And Dakka Bear just needs to go away. No one uses it. It should definitely be replaced by some sort of sustain skill.


What do you mean? Dakka bear is a great skill. What if a friend needs to go AFK for a 5-20 seconds and needs to move around the map a little bit.

But in all seriousness, after they buff Iron Bear if they at least make it so a teammate can ride and shoot their own gun, (LIKE IN THE CHARACTER TRAILER!!!), then it could be interesting.

Dakka bear needs to be innate to IB, I think. No need to remove it, at least it should be there, but not worth a skill point.


When people use “fun” in place of “effective” or “efficient” or “overpowered” it makes it hard to take the criticism seriously.

Have you experimented with it or are we just going with your “it should do… it should do…” assumptions?

so you’re telling me, that a teammate “Amara”, for example, is better off on a Dakka Bear than on foot with her abilites, grenades, assortment of guns?

Yea dakka bear and zanes weapon swap speed skill are in the running for 1/2 on the completely useless and stupid perks awards lol

Dakka Bear is a nice meme for the first three hours of a group’s first playthrough, but it should just be buffed/scale very hard. With how effective it is to basically “solo” side by side in multiplayer, the incentive for a geared player to ALSO stop using their character and use that turret should be massive. Not “Hex spam” level, but I think being strong enough compete with the average power level of a legendary gun would be reasonable (at 50, at least). Give bonuses for actually cooperating. Or manned auto-bear memes, I suppose.

A skill shouldn’t be funny for five minutes and garbage for five years.

Melee Amara + Moze could totally look like this.

The alternatives to Vampyr, for in combat sustain, all get progressively clunkier. Having a massive shield trivializes small fights, but doesn’t help if the engagement is long enough or hectic enough that you use up that entire buffer. “Tactical” Second Wind is an okay bandaid for now, but better polish for non-Vampyr SoR would be great to see in the long run.

Dakka bear needs to be innate to IB,

This is a good idea. Dokka Bear should be apart of IB from the start, with out wasting a point for it. This way people can have fun with it and i still have a point to spend elsewhere.

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I never said anything was “better.” The general hyperbole consensus is “useless.”

Something that has use is not useless. Just because it isn’t overpowered doesn’t automatically make it useless.

Dakka bear has infinite ammo and offers a huge damage buffer for any player to regen shield while riding with the benefit of still being able to deal damage. If it was any stronger it would be broken.

To be broken it would need to do about 400% more damage…

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So on TVHM it does 657 damage to an Armored Vehicle. This is on Sanctuary with no modifiers to Normal Bullet damage.

400% more damage would put it at about 2700 damage. I’m not sure about the RPM because I didn’t bother to calculate it, but yes that does seem like it would be broken.

So are you supporting my point that if this was buffed it would be broken? I’m confused about your response.


EDIT - I also recorded a clip to see how long it takes to destroy the truck. It took about 6 seconds. The bandit Technical at level 50 has 43,000 Armor. So the turret is doing roughly 7,000 damage per second on an armored target.

I recorded another clip on Pandora with Mayhem modifiers and the damage was reduced to 312. With damage was not able to destroy the truck but only able to bring it down to about 1% health before the 15 seconds was up.

I recorded another clip with 45% damage boost to action skill which boosted Dakka Bear damage to 453 and I was able to destroy the truck in a little under 10 seconds.

Oddly my damage after resetting is now 312, and it looks like Mayhem modifiers apply once leaving sanctually. I must have had some damage boost applied in the original picture.