The Problems with endgame Moze builds

Blue and green level 50 guns can do 657 damage.

So Dakka Bear at level 50 Does 312 damage to a Armored vehicle. By comparison an Infinity with 377 on the card does 321 to the armored vehicle.

So for one point you get an optional weapon that fires around 9 rounds per second with a damage buffer that your friends can ride to regen shield or just for fun.

Please don’t use the infinite pistol as your benchmark, that gun is terrible.

The main thing I use Dakka Bear for in solo play is increased survivability. In the event my shield goes down and I’m out of grenades I can hope in Dakka bear while still dealing damage. My shield regens and I start regening 5% of my health per second with the shield I use.

My IB’s base Armor is 83k So it takes a lot of damage for it to actually goes down. It’s honestly more than enough for it to survive the 10-15 seconds I need to recall IB. In this video I’m being fired on by 3 enemies, the one that IB turns to attack (Another benefit) is a Badass Commando. I can freely fire on enemies while taking 0 damage.

These are my Mayhem Modifiers in TVHM.

I’ve got another clip uploading with modifiers that significantly reduce normal bullet damage. I’m still able to kill groups of Maliwann Soldiers with heavies & badasses mixed in.

Dude… 1 tick of Hex for me does approximately 3-4k damage. One single pellet of Scourge does in between 30k to 200k.

600 damage? Omegalul… That’s like… nothing. I can kill Graveward M3 faster than you can kill that one small mob. Heck, I can kill it faster than it takes you to even get into that turret. lul.

600 damage, lul.

I am not shitting you, they need at the very least to buff the damage by 400% to even be worth using in M3. Right now what you have shown you can do better even with shittiest guns, like said Infinity.

I mean, honestly m8, you can hallucinate there all you like, but really unless you are like doing this hardcore balls to the Mecha RP thing - you can do truckloads more damage by not using it with just about… everything.


The difference between all the things you said and Dakka bear is 5.6x Moze health converted to Armor.

Moze or anyone who decides to get inside Dakka Bear gets 5.6x Moze Health + Infinite Ammo. The guns base damage before any modifiers is 390 at roughly 9 shots per second.

It gets the job done in terms of “adding” additional damage on top of what Iron Bear does. It’s not meant to be a stand alone kill turret. It’s only a 1 point investment, but it offers a wealth of “additional” play options.

Why is everyones standard for just “Playing the game,” based on “How fast it can kill graveward.”

A lot of these topics are “Iron Bear is useless” or “Moze sucks end game…etc.”

My point is that Iron Bear is not useless and Moze doesn’t suck end game. People are having a hard time telling the difference between Overpowered and Viable. I’m not saying Iron bear is some game breaking god machine. I’m not saying Iron Bear is better than a Lyuda. I’m saying calling different components of a kit useless because they don’t allow you to 1 shot a boss is hyperbole.

This clip is only using Iron Bear damage with Bad modifiers. It takes me awhile to kill the enemies, but I’m also unkillable. I’m also going up against a corrosive enemy in this clip, which does extra damage to armor. The nog took some extra time to kill because their crit spot is on their back. I can usually burst them down easily, but he was pressed against a wall. Combing Iron bear with a good loadout on Moze with an Iron Bear build is very effective and viable in TVHM Mayhem 3. I have no issue with surviving or killing enemies.

I’ve got another clip uploading right now with the same modifiers going up against 2 Anointed. One of them is the infamous Militant. I’m actually using my gun to shoot things as well so it goes a little faster. I wasn’t paying attention and was actually using a corrosive gun for awhile though.

All VHs including Moze can restore HP to full in a matter of split second. I can literally go from 0 to 40k in that time at a press of a button.

Popular Amara build can oneshot the mob you shown without crit and has 75% lifesteal from that damage. Same with other VHs.

Moze - I have 52k shield unbuffed and need to press G once to get all that 52k shield back with no real CD on that.

The ■■■■ you linked with 120k HP bear requires 5 skill points AND using ■■■■■■ Iron Bear class mod. lulz… That’s like not even a even a match to Vampyr + Blood - which literally makes you invincible.

I mean… really mate? Wake up and smell some coffee - this is what Moze players run in M3, taken by yours truly:

Please tell me where that Dakka Bear and 120k HP on a frikkin 2 mins cooldown at cost of 5 skill points and wasted class mod even compares and heck I even slot Loaded Dice in that vid, because I can’t die anyway luuul.

I don’t even use Iron Bear, like at all, because it’s pointless and dumping skill points into it would make it even worse, because what I will lose from not putting these points in just about anything else is greater than the nothing I will get from it.

1 Like

My video is 2 minutes 46 seconds. In that time I called Iron Bear At least 5 times. What is this 2 minute cooldown thing people keep going on about. If for whatever reason you run out of fuel, which I never do the cool down is only 30 seconds. I recorded another video if you’d like to see it. With Autobear (1 Pt) Iron bear stays out for 15 seconds after running out of fuel. So you’re only without Iron Bear for 15 seconds. This is without getting any kills or doing splash damage to increase the cooldown rate by 25%.

I appreciate and respect that you like running a build that mostly relies on broken Mechanics. That’s cool, I like Iron Bear. It’s literally the only reason I play moze, and as a moze player with over 60hrs clocked just playing for fun I don’t have an issue on Mayhem 3 playing a completely normal run of the mill build.

Also you confusing the Rocketeer Classmod with the Bear Trooper mod. The Rocketeer mod is required to have Iron Bear out for the duration of it’s fuel. I don’t use that one because it doesn’t work with my shield. I’d need more stuff to get the cooldown under 25 seconds as that mod doesn’t refund any cooldown time for fuel. My build can work with any mod with Stainless Steel bear. I currently have +2 on this mod. Even without this mod though I can get over 100k Armor with the near impossiblet obtain shield lol. Mendel’s Multivitan will still let Iron bear hit over 83k Health without an anointment and I have another shield that gives me Nova’s when enteraing & exiting bear if I wanted to use that.

Oof, this guy’s showing off the armor of IB against three regular enemies, and it still blows up and does hardly any damage.

The conversation between you two is like the best player in pick up backyard football bragging about their touchdowns to an NFl running back.

@Gaidax You’re talking to a wall.



Just imagine how many skill points, shield and class mod slot were sacrificed for the returns you offer… it’s hilarious - all that effort for such subpar results.

Moze has several builds with actual potential, none of them rely on Iron Bear, except one - where you are getting out of said bear ASAP after getting in for Anointed bonuses abusing CD refund.

They’d need to fix a lot of supposed “broken mechanics” before whatever you push here will even be a thing.

I will spell it in simple words - Iron Bear needs a good 400% buff across the board before builds with it become an actual thing in M3, aside from RP reasons. I have shown you the difference between what goes in M3 and what you show, it’s pretty obvious.

You can love it all you like, but Borderlands is a simple game of math.

Yeah, I think I’m done wasting my time here.

The dude can hallucinate all he likes about Iron Bear viability, his game so whatevs. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

For some people, “viable” = I don’t give up any character power vs choosing a top build.

For people at the other extreme “viable” = it’s technically possible.

I wonder where “balanced” might lie along that spectrum?

Izthatit, feel free to try aiming Dakka Bear while a Moze is actively jumping around to dodge attacks in a busy firefight. The “safety” factor is also incredibly niche as many players (at M3) are quite fine with charging forward and Second Winding in order to not nerf their damage output to “I’m a helper!” levels of tickling.

Also, lulz at any version of Bloodletter Moze using IB to regen a shield now. XD

I don’t expect IB to do the damage of a top build mainly because Moze is essentially invulnerable for the duration - but it shouldn’t be a waste of time to press the button.

To me viable mean “While it isn’t the top build it is still possible to achieve the same results in a timely manner.” If the top build does a slaughter shaft in 10 minutes, then I’m okay with 12-15 tops. A dakka build would take 2 hours just for round one.

How am I hallucinating so you want me to stream the game while I’m playing on TVHM in Mayhem 3?

You people have some weird issues with insulting people that you dont agree with.



  • 1Capable of working successfully; feasible.

And where are you getting “A dakka build” it’s 1 freaking point. I’m gonna assume you’re trolling because you seem to only be throwing around hyperbole and insults.

“Extreme?” Whare you getting this? The dictionary definition of viable means It is possible, or to quote the Oxford Dictionary “Capable of working successfully; feasible.”.

You realize this is about build diversity. “Any Version of Bloodletter” isn’t diverse it’s just a build centered around a single Aspect. It’s essentially 1 build. Infinite Ammo Moze is another build. infinite grenades moze is another build. Iron Bear moze is another build.

If you feel like using Bloodletter is the only “viable” way to play the game that’s a problem. I’m literally sitting here playing the game on True Vault Hunter Mode set to Mayhem 3 running a Iron Bear Build that is Working Successfully to kill enemies and move through each stage of the game without major issue.

I can literally stream me playing the game and not having trouble with Badasses or Anointed enemies as I go through diferent load screen having the Mayhem modifiers constantly change. I have no issue with 30% chance to reflect bullets. I have no issue with enemies having 45% more health and shields. I have no issues with Normal bullets doing less damage.

Why am I having no issue? Because a build focused around iron bear is “Capable of working successfully; feasible.” It does not have to be Overpowered (This is an extreme) to be feasible (possible).

Am I saying I would not like an Iron bear buff? No, I’m saying Iron bear is not useless nor is it a waste of time. If you want to run an OP build that’s cool, that doesn’t mean Iron Bear can’t work normally playing the game.

At the moment Iron Bear is really lacking endgame potential. Endgame is all about optimizing builds and gear and the action skill just can not keep up with everything else Moze can provide.

I’m sure Iron Bear can be kept alive in TVHM Mayhem 3 and can kill stuff, but in the current state of the game it takes a lot longer than any other build to do this.

But in a recent Gearbox stream they mentioned, that they will address Iron Bears (and also FL4Ks pets) endgame viability in a upcoming patch:

I saw that I look forward to it. My biggest gripe is how the armor scaling works along with the lack of items that give a substantial health increase. Getting an anointed version of that shield was painful. Definitely not my kind of grind. It was worth it though, albeit when I switched some things up I found I didnt need the extra 40k health lol

“Any version of Bloodletter” = any of several builds that might use the COM. There’s more than one way to use it. Not “a build.” It’s a popular option to gain access to in-combat healing vs the nade build that tanks with health gating (some used it just for the skills, without Vampyr, so the nerf hurts them - for some reason). Health based Vampyr is another build where regenning shields doesn’t matter. I can see a SoR centric build that only gets to auto-bear in DW maybe using the turret.

Actually, just wondered something. Does the turret count as “entering Iron Bear” for Full Can of Whoop-Ass or does that just mean initial activation of the action skill?

Putting words in my mouth.

I’m one of the people that’s less critical of IB, but perhaps that comment was directed at the thread in general.

I’m glad that people like you investigate the extent of what is possible, especially for unpopular options. I wouldn’t have the patience to do all that testing myself, but I’m more than happy to farm up a Megavitamin (got a number of COMs to choose from) if it means I have another way to play with my friend that doesn’t involve making it impossible for him to see enemies to even shoot at them (aka, explosive spam). I even kinda like that ~20 seconds of downtime because that means having decent guns still matter a bit (and thus it isn’t like melee builds that just ignore 99% of the game’s loot).

I think 20-50% increase in clear time over a top build is a rather narrow definition, but he said “for me” so I decided to not throw the book at him. Definitions are subjective to begin with (a dictionary is just widely accepted subjectivity), so somebody having a differing definition from the norm isn’t too surprising. It’s part of how words change in meaning over time.

As a personal way of defining viable/feasible, for the context of BL3 builds and whatnot, I’d go with something like “doesn’t fall too far behind the average player’s ability with an average build.” Aka, if you gave it to an average player they’d be okay with the clear speed (so long as the playstyle is to their taste). I believe you that (properly setup) IB is viable for M3 - and probably significantly above the minimum of what I might consider feasible/worth using.

I’m still convinced that Dakka Bear is just for 1. memes and 2. extremely niche usage by a small percentage of players (“it’s possible to do X” doesn’t mean a lot without “the probability of a player doing X” accompanying it, as well as the tradeoffs for not just doing Y).

Well the good thing is you only have to do the Holy Spirits side quest to get it. The 40k Extra armor from the anointment is completely unecessary. So I’d advise against farming for that.

Playing the Cistern of Slaughter & Eridian Proven ground I realized I’d be better of using the anointment that gives a Nova on Entry/Exit of Iron Bear for things like that. I was fortunate enough to get that on Band of Sitorak so I get that with an extra 25% HP.

The other thing about MM is that you get the health regen while shield is full so you dont have to depend on grenades for healing all the time.

I didn’t really care to investigate but it just happened that I needed cold hard facts to say he’s not “useless.” As an Ex-D.Va main I went through this in Overwatch Pre-Buff. Everyone swore she was trash. Minor tweaks to her kit and she became OP and had numerous nerfs to follow.

I’ll be happy when IB buffs come but I’m not hard pressed for them as I can still play just fine.

1 Like

Interesting that you mention D.Va, because she was trash near the start and only was good and needed nerfs after they reworked her kit.

Translated to this game. IB is trash and needs a rework. Nerfs might need to follow if the rework is too good. And everyone who plays Moze will agree.

1 Like