The Raid Boss Problem in Borderlands 2

I originally had a post up yesterday on Hyperius (following my one on Haderax), but then I realized my problems with the raid bosses in this game are fundamental and ubiquitous, not particular to any one or two of them. So I deleted it and instead wrote this one, which I post here to gauge the temperature of people who have far more experience with, and knowledge of, Borderlands 2 than I do.

Plus I figured it’d just be fun to talk about since these BL2 boards seem kind of dead-ish at the moment.

  1. What do I mean by “raid boss problem”?

First, some relevant information about me: I’m new to the FPS genre. Believe it or not, BL1 was the first FPS I ever played. My wheelhouse is survival horror (Resident Evil, Silent Hill, etc.) and indie/retro games (mainly Metroidvanias). Hence, if I’m not grasping some concept or completely overlooking it, that’s almost certainly because I’m just not familiar with it - it’s not deliberate or (I hope) a result of native stupidity on my part.

This is relevant because in the reading I’ve done, I’ve noticed that whenever people offer critiques of the raid boss system in BL2, a handful of commenters will pop up and say that the critiques are based on faulty premises - the critics don’t understand, ostensibly, “the concept of a raid boss.”

I admit I probably don’t. But I think my points can withstand any innocence of the concept on my part.

The first aspect of the problem with these raid bosses is that they’re in effect half-inside/half-outside the parameters of the main game. On the one hand, they’re no part of the main quest, neither in the game proper nor in the DLCs. You could be completely ignorant of their existence and still have a solid grasp on what BL2 is.

On the other hand, they drop loot, directly (weapons) or indirectly (seraph crystals), that can be used in-game to make life easier on higher difficulties. So they have some ‘internal’ relationship to the main game despite being basically ‘external’ to it.

I think this is, when all is said and done, the root of my issue with these bosses. It isn’t, as you might expect, that they’re too hard to solo or badly designed (that’s a separate matter), that they’re made for co-op, or that they restrict the scope of feasible builds and loadouts, leading to a certain homogeneity in approach that contradicts the game’s emphasis on variety.

I may not like any or all of that, but I can accept it, especially if it comes with the package of “raid bosses” as a concept.

Rather, the problem is that due to the external-but-internal nature of the bosses vis-a-vis the main game, they are still treated in essential ways like main game bosses. By which I mean: you can’t teleport directly to them and there remains a hefty monetary penalty for dying. Most notably for solo players, this makes learning by experimenting with fighting them an utter nightmare, and it really shouldn’t be that way.

Take Master Gee as an example. Buried deep in Hayter’s Folly in the Scarlett DLC, his arena is surrounded by extremely aggressive and numerous skags, Crystalisks, and sharp-shooting human enemies. You can take them out, but they’ll respawn in about 20 minutes, and if you just want to speed back to Gee, you can get downed easily by, say, one of those nasty shock attacks from the Crystalisks, or by a rabid skag who won’t leave you alone.

Hyperius is another example. You have to do a tedious run-through of Washburne Refinery just to get to him, as there is no way to fast travel anywhere near his arena.

The model here is Haderax. Whatever my feelings are about the boss himself (hate him), you can warp directly outside of his arena in the Burrows, and thus get right down to business without the completely unnecessary hassle of having to slaughter your way to him, or, even worse, of having to deal with a host of respawning enemies.

All of that leads to mixed signals. Whereas the seraph crystals and weapons most of these bosses possess scream “Farm me!” at the player, the entire framework around the bosses screams “You’re an idiot for trying to farm me.”

This isn’t about the bosses themselves - I’m not saying they should be easier or different in any way at all. It’s about the contradictory zone they exist within at the fringes of the game, half-in, half-out, which leads to all of these derivative contradictions (farm me/don’t farm me, etc.).

Then there’s the issue of the monetary penalty. For most of these bosses, you have two options: accept it when you go down and pay the death tax, which, if you are just trying to figure out an angle on the fights, gets very steep very fast; or else save and quit, fight your way back to the arena, and spend the eridium necessary to open it up. Either way you’re getting fleeced.

Perhaps this is business as usual for these types of games - as noted above, I wouldn’t know - but if it is, then it’s bad business, and BL2 should have been bold enough to start up a new one.

Why would I or anyone be so put off by such a seemingly minor problem? To be sure, raiding is a niche occupation that only a minority of players will be interested in. But those players are likely to be the most passionate, the ones who want to squeeze every ounce of fun and challenge out of the game as is there to be squeezed. Raid bosses are where the rubber hits the road in BL2, functioning basically as knowledge and skill checks. This they do sporadically well; what they do not do well is permit the player to develop knowledge and skill by fighting them repeatedly.

And this for the reasons given above. You are actively discouraged by deliberately placed obstacles from repeatedly fighting the bosses. As I understand it, this is a hangover from an earlier version of the game when we were only allowed to kill the bosses once per day (which, while frustrating and somewhat contradictory in its own way - farm, but don’t - makes the difficulty of returning to the bosses much more understandable). If that’s the case, I can see why the obstacles were there, but not why they remain there.

There’s now no restriction on how many times you can kill the bosses per day, but you’d barely know it from the game itself, since everything around them tells you this is only meant to be done once or occasionally.

To sum this point up, It seems to me that there isn’t a coherent concept of what these raid bosses are supposed to be and how they’re supposed to function relative to the game proper. This incoherence trickles down into the design itself, down even to simple matters like getting to them.

If I could fight Haderax or Gee a million times in a row, observing, learning more as I go, experimenting, I would actually have fun with them. I’d still die again and again, but I wouldn’t have to worry about running out of money, being unable to resupply my ammo, and thus having to go and farm for weapons to sell, after which I must fight my way back to the arenas, spend the eridium, and do it all over again.

I consider this a cardinal sin of game design, whether the game is meant to be big or small, long or short: wasting your audience’s time. Whenever games do that - or any artistic medium, for that matter - it puts me off because it smells like contempt. The game (or whatever it may be) as a result does not respect the fact that its audience is comprised of human beings with lives outside of games, families, responsibilities.

Be as long or as short as you like - that’s part of the package - but don’t waste my time. That’s all I would request. I consider it a formidable achievement of any game designer to make a product that wastes as little of my time as possible. It’s like with doctors: first do no harm - first, do not waste time. Noli tempus perdere. It should be emblazoned in production companies’ headquarters around the globe.

  1. I’ve said that my principal issue with the raid bosses was not their actual design, which, while true, doesn’t mean I don’t have problems on that score as well.

It is said, ad nauseam, that the word “raid” implies “co-op.” It might (I wouldn’t know), but I would nonetheless say on the contrary: being able to play the bosses solo implies “solo.” The bosses should have modes scalable to both styles of play, and in some respects they do. The scales are not balanced, however.

The bosses have so much health and deal so much damage so quickly that one must either (a) get very good at fighting them or (b) find a cheese or an exploit, if one wants to have any hope of soloing them.

Option (a) is made ridiculously frustrating by the design choices elaborated in my first big criticism. It’s hard to get good at fighting these bosses when you can’t get the reps in without wasting a truly asinine amount of time.

Option (b), while nice for farming and just getting the job done, is less than satisfying, and checks no knowledge or skill at all, basically defeating the purpose.

For solo play, due to the hindrances facing anyone who’d want to develop the “legit” approach of (a), the cheesing approach of (b) is therefore not just permitted but encouraged by the way the bosses are designed.

Additionally - I admit this is a more subjective point - it appears to me that Gearbox piled on a lot of difficulty in these bosses by simply cheating. To take the most egregious example: Master Gee. I have been trying to solo this guy off and on for a week. I know exactly how to do it. It would almost be a fun fight if the hit boxes worked properly and FFYL wasn’t nerfed to non-existence by making it almost impossible to kill any worms when downed.

But you can do everything right, luring Gee over the dead center of the acid pool just as it is created - and he won’t absorb the damn thing. Throw a quasar or a singularity to get him back on it - still won’t absorb it. Oh well. Two or three more worms pop up right next to the acid pool; it’s all over. Curtains. Death tax. Punch my couch.

Why am I dying here? What have I done wrong? What have I not understood about the fight? As far as I can tell, I’ve done nothing wrong and haven’t misunderstood anything. I’m dying because the hit detection was built to be piss poor.

Again: wasting my time.

By comparison, Hyperius in my view was very well designed, all things considered. Hard as hell, demanding both knowledge and skill, but completely doable so long as you have them. I managed to fight him enough times to get a pretty good feel for the fight, and now when I die it’s usually my fault. I’m fine with that.

Most of these bosses, unfortunately, are not like Hyperius. Haderax, Badassasaurus, etc., are all bad in their own ways, while Gee uniquely owns a special kind of badness.

I don’t know how I would make any of this better, but surely there are plenty of examples of these types of bosses in other games. For starters, I’d recommend looking at Hyperius and maybe Pyro Pete for examples of raid bosses on the right track.

For solo players in particular, it shouldn’t be the case that it’s over as soon as they go into FFYL. It makes the entire mechanic utterly pointless.

Arguably, all attacks should be avoidable, but I can see the logic in someone saying that unavoidable attacks are a knowledge check on health gating, which is a mechanic in the game. The novas don’t bother me too much in the Hyperius fight - I know what I’m supposed to do when they’re released - so it would seem the issue isn’t avoidable vs. unavoidable but balanced vs. unbalanced.

I hate to keep coming back to Gee, but I will never apologize for constantly complaining about how bad he is. And here again, the contrast with Hyperius is evident. The acid pools, oh my, the acid pools - we know what to do, but it’s up to the game’s whims whether it will actually let us do it. With Hyperius, the grog or whatever is in your hands. You control your health gating. With Master Gee, on the contrary, all you can do is lead him over the acid pools and hope the game decides to register that he’s absorbed them. If it doesn’t - you’re done.

Still, even with a terrible fight like Gee’s, it wouldn’t bother me so much if it weren’t for the death tax and the respawning enemies outside the arena.

  1. I might summarize all of this like so: there’s a vicious synergy between the contradictory framework the raid bosses exist in conceptually and the shoddiness of their design, all but making cheesing a necessity, especially if you want to farm them.

Unless I’m mistaken, a raid boss is supposed to be about knowledge and skill, as stated, but here, due to this vicious synergy, they become in practice about exploits, glitches, and cutting corners.

I have my problems with other areas of this game, notably farming, but there I can at least understand how some amount of time-wasting is intrinsic to what it is (my main criticism of the farming in this game, in a nutshell, is that the drop rates need another buff: +5% sounds just right to me). Farming is basically gambling, playing a slot machine, bashing a pinata. Winning can take a while. But raid bosses are the opposite, or at least are supposed to be. There’s no excuse.

Whether any of you agree, disagree, or are a milquetoast moderate who considers things reasonably point by point, agreeing and disagreeing when called for, I hope I’ve at least stirred the pot a bit.

Thanks for reading.

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For the most part, you’re not mistaken. Take a gander at some of the Time Trials submissions and you’ll see nothing but head-scratching multi-exploit kills. More time is spent swapping gear than actually fighting.

The Dragons would be the biggest exception : there are few exploits that can fast-track that fight and those that are available (Bloodsplosion and Maya’s Fibber+Kinetic Reflection) are tremendously difficult to set up.
Vorac is in there too (although Bloodsplosion is rather easy in low OP levels).

Agreed they are all a huge pain to get to. As a PC player I have the option of “alternative methods” to get to a couple arenas, but still getting locked out of Hyp’s arena is extremely grating.

Terra, Pete, Gee and Craw are all straightforward fights though. In those cases, understanding the patterns is critical and one doesn’t need to resort to excessive hiding (Pete, Terra). Otherwise one doesn’t need special gear for those (Bee notwithstanding).

Honestly I’ve come to enjoy the Gee fight. For the longest time I hated him as you do, but had the good fortune of having a lot of forum and Steam buddies that convinced me otherwise.

Haderax? Well I never bothered to put the time in but there was an extensive thread dedicated to figuring out the patterns.

The OP initially said as you : impossible. Then he 180’d after a short time declaring Had easy. I only had good success with Hellborn Krieg. Even then, a slag Crossfire and a Conference Call seemed to be damn near required. And how many people just happen to have a fire CC readily available.

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I got incredibly lucky when I was farming Bunker - he world dropped me a fire CC and a corrosive CC over the span of 1,500-2,000 kills. I’m sure I just don’t have the Haderax fight down pat enough to know what’s doable and what’s not, and of course this is a big part of my criticism. It’s so costly to practice and so annoying and time-wasting to continue practicing that I all but give up on the idea. I really don’t want to do that, but I cannot waste that kind of time.

Now, I actually agree with you on Gee. I think he’s creepy as hell and I really dig the atmosphere of the fight. And since you seem to have him cracked, could you please give me a little info. on how to better get him to absorb the acid?

I’ve just found it to be so inconsistent that I quit in frustration and then rage kill him with the gate just for the sake of catharsis. To date, it’s the only way I’ve managed to kill him. I’ve come close a couple of times, but there’s always one pool he fails to absorb no matter how many quasar I chuck to get him back on it.

I noticed in this one video I saw that Gee would kneel down to shoot rockets right behind the worm every time one popped up. I thought, “My, that’s convenient - if only that’s what he actually did in my game.” Instead, he endlessly chases me and only rarely pauses to shoot rockets.

Again, I know there’s some crucial stuff I’m missing or not understanding in this fight, little nuances that would allow me to better crack the code, but I can’t figure it out. I’ve already lost 200 million to him, more or less, and even died a couple of times trying to get back to his arena to the respawning enemies.

I’m a slow learner, it takes a while for even obvious things to dawn on me at times. So practice, practice, practice is the only way to go about learning on my own. I’m perfectly willing to do it, in principle. But in practice, most of the time with these raid bosses, I’m not, for the reasons stated.

So if you could tell me anything helpful I could try out on Gee (as Maya, not that I think it makes much difference in this case), I would be grateful. I want badly to get the most out of this fight, because I actually dig it.

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I don’t think I’m well equipped enough to advise since I haven’t actually played the game since shortly after Lilith’s DLC came out, and certainly haven’t fought Gee in quite some time.

Even then, it was mostly with Zer0 (Execute-ing him into the pools is pretty awesome) and Sal (Fist Full of Hurt, also awesome). So I haven’t really been as dependent on singularities as other characters require.

Unfortunately most of the masses who used to crawl all over this board have dispersed over the last year. Hopefully someone will chip in.

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Yeah, I noticed. Truthfully it’s what gave me the green light to start posting here; the knowledge some people are packing here can be pretty intimidating, in the sense that it makes newbies a bit gun shy about expressing opinions for fear of getting blown out of the water.

Now that there’s fewer people around, I gathered the remnants would be die-hards who’d just love to see newcomers gaining passion for the game. That’s a good crowd to dip my toes in the water with, to gauge if I’ve learned anything at all and formed at least solid opinions that hold some water. This is all still very new to me, despite having put probably upwards of 800 hours into BL1 and 2 combined (chump change for many here, I realize, but unheard of for me).

Anyway, I appreciate you chiming in. I’ve read a lot of your comments on these boards while fishing for knowledge over the past few months.

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Coupla things.

Gearbox has stated, more than once, that raid bosses are exactly that, designed for “raids” of multiple players. Not designed for solo play. So the commenters you see saying that are simply repeating what the game designers were trying to achieve.
Quote from the designer, specifically when they introduced Terramorphous;
“A lot of the end-game pull is that four-player co-op challenge at a high level against a really tough-to-fight boss. He is designed to be impossible. I’m not going to say he’s not soloable, because I know how well gamers break games, but he really is tuned for that end-game, four-player co-op fight, testing your build and your gear and your equipment and your ability to work together as a team. His rewards are great. So, if you are that end-game player, this is your challenge right here.”

Designed to be impossible for solos, though most of us still here have solo’d them.

As for the walk to the battle point, yeah, it’s a pain. But again, a designed pain to get the rewards offered.

No mixed signals here. Story mode, which is what the vast majority of players will only do, does not contain them. They’re for those of us who will want to put hundreds or thousands of hours in, and having a walk is part o that experience. Understand that you don’t like it (neither do I for some, though even at OP6 I find I can generally run past to the boss with skillful dodging and phaselocking.)

Not fleeced. Playing the game the way the designers intended.

Again, they have two audiences. Those who will play through one, twice or three times and then move on, or those who will stick around. For those who stick around, there are barriers to not making it too simple. Again, might not be your cup of tea but it’s by design.

Won’t disagree with you there. I’ve killed Gee once, just to say to myself I could. No intention of ever doing it again. Same with the Dragons of Destruction, I’ve taken my 45 minutes to defeat them once, so it’s a notch on my scorecard that I don’t have to do again.

IN the end it’s all about expectations and your perception of game design vs. the designers who implemented this particular game.
Even with BL3. Wait until you get to that and have to go through the bosses who have multiple minutes of invulnerability to any damage, you might want to stock up on more swear words for that.

Would I like to get to Pete or Hyperious faster? Yeah, it’d be nice, but I’m fine with this.

Though I will say, there are two bosses I have not solo’d, Dexidious and O-O-O. Haven’t even tried, since the steps to get them are such a time sink that I have no interest. So I’ll never have a Twister shotgun. I’m OK with that.
The rest I’ve done, though some with OP6 gear and setting the game to OP0.
And you’ll note I say OP6 there. That’s my highest BL2 level. I’ve tried to get to OP7 many times, no joy.

Why? Because it’s my natural gaming level. I’m a very good Borderlands player, but I’m not a great one. I could blame my age (62) but the reality is I couldn’t have beaten them when I was 21. Never had hyper-twitch reflexes, for example, and the other attributes that make for the best players. And I recognize that and don’t get frustrated beyond the controller slam when I get a particularly bad beat. But I did that getting beat in Wizardy in 1981, too.
I still play at least once a week (more once BL3 is done with all it’s first-year DLC and content) and expect to for years more.
Basically the summary is; I let the game come to me. If the designers set it up that way, then that’s the Universe I’m playing in. Also, the game is just that, a game and a diversion that I very much enjoy. I don’t expect it to be fair or all to my liking.

So I swear at Voracidous when he bull-rushes me to my death again, and say One more run…
–RoA

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I had the same ‘problem’ about a year ago. But you’re asking for advice, no one will blow you out of the water for that. As long as one does not enter with the opinion ‘Everybody’s wrong but me’ most are glad to help.

I think @nat_zero_six is pretty well-versed on raid bosses and should still be around. Maybe he has some hints.

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I appreciate your perspective and all of your points are valid. I suppose I just have a diametrically opposed perspective on the matter, which I don’t say to be obtuse or obnoxious, but only to air what I think are important criticisms that can’t be refuted by quoting the developers.

I really respect you and your opinion, so don’t take any of the following as me bristling at you. I am bristling at Gearbox.

Now, to get to it:

Personally, I don’t care what Gearbox says - if the raid bosses are meant only for co-op play, then they should be locked behind co-op play. That’s that; I can’t see it any other way.

But if, as is the case, the developers allow them to be played solo, then by design, regardless of what they avow publicly, they are also open to being fought solo. Nothing in the game tells you that these bosses are meant only to be co-op’d. So “raid” cannot = “co-op” in this case; the terms are not co-extensive, and these particular raid bosses are wide open to being solo’d. I had no idea there was any intention that they be “co-op only” until people told me and quoted the developers.

As for “doing what the developers intended” entailing that I’m not being fleeced, I confess I don’t understand the reasoning there. Something can be intended and still piss poor and a waste of time, yes? Both can be true: the developers intended it and I’m getting fleeced, since their intention led to that (supposedly) unintended consequence.

Regarding wasting my time - my biggest pet peeve - I am in the audience of those who stick around for hundreds or thousands of hours, and I don’t feel in the slightest that these time-wasting barriers make the game in general, or raiding in particular, any less simple. They just make it more time-wasting and annoying. Getting to Hyperius isn’t hard. It is, however, a waste of time when all you want to do is fight Hyperius.

Ironically enough, what I’ve been saying is that I would stick around much longer with these raid bosses if these annoyances and time-wasting obstacles weren’t there. It doesn’t make me, personally, want to stick around or take as much of an interest in the raid bosses as I otherwise would. It’s a barrier and a disincentive, not an invitation and an incentive - not because it’s challenging, but because it’s bad form.

Speaking personally, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as it smacks of contempt. But maybe that’s just me. I’m a stickler about these things.

In any case, I can’t imagine why anyone would be a fan of the aspects of the raid boss framework which we’re discussing, whatever the devs intended. Your words too don’t leave me with the impression that you could be called a fan of them - you said you’re “fine” with them, but as I understand it, “fine” leaves a good deal of room for improvement. I want to be great with them!

Believe me, I am not the guy who expects everything to be fair or to my liking. Fundamental things, though, I expect to be designed thoughtfully and with due consideration. That’s their job. There’s a whole aspect of the game, “raiding,” that wants a framework; and what I’m criticizing is not that it’s unfair or too difficult, but that it is poorly thought through and implemented. Agree or not, I hope at least that’s clear and makes sense.

It comes down, maybe, to the sense of having one’s time wasted being more or less subjective; I gather that you don’t think it’s a waste of time. There’s no argument I can make against that; I’d merely wager that most people do think it’s a waste, and they’re well aware of what the developers were going for. Doesn’t make them or me right, of course, but it should at least give Gearbox pause.

(If you watched MorningAfterKill’s recent video explaining why he intends to stop playing BL3, criticizing how much of his time it wasted loomed large in his account of his recent disillusionment. He’s definitely not a casual player.)

I also want to say this: I couldn’t offer a stronger protest to Gearbox for apparently trying to lock awesome gear and rewards behind co-op with the raid bosses. Thankfully they didn’t succeed - they allowed the bosses to solo’d. Nevertheless, as you said, they didn’t intend for them to be.

This is not “a co-op game.” It is a game that can be played in co-op or solo. Either way it works just fine, inviting both types of audiences to partake in its grandeur. This being so, why in the hell would they hide all sorts of amazing gear behind what they proclaim is a strictly-for-co-op endeavor?

I don’t consider any of this to be mixed signals; I consider it outright contradictory. You invite players to buy your game and exhaust its contents - that’s part of the promise of buying a game: the opportunity to try to complete it - and then you say to them, should they want to do it solo, “Actually - no, all of this awesome stuff isn’t meant for you.” Not only do I not like that, it right pisses me off. It’s essentially a middle finger to anyone who flies solo.

The fact that we’re even engaging in this tricky discussion is evidence that they screwed the pooch. If their intention was well executed, we wouldn’t have anything to discuss. I’d be pissed that they locked the gear behind co-op, but at least it would be clear that’s what they did. As it stands, though, it is absolutely not clear, and all their statement does is muddy the waters.

So we start getting into parsing and nitpicking. I can’t gainsay the words from the horse’s mouth; but, on the other hand, I can’t deny the evidence of my senses: the bosses are not locked behind co-op. What did they really intend. then? There is what they said and what they did, and they don’t match up.

And dude, seriously - if you want a Twister (on PS4) I can give you one no problem. I’ve done OOK several times and even farmed for Twisters. Unfortunately, mine is level 80 (I know you’re an OP player), but if you want one just to have one, it’s no problem. The offer stands!

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Certainly not diametrically opposed. Different in some areas, but some shared.
–RoA

Fair enough.

I said that only because it sounded to me like you were, more or less, taking the position that one ought to spend less time criticizing and more time enjoying; which is more of a general orientation toward the notion of “games” and “gaming.”

Basically: Developer x makes a world; you’re invited to partake in it, but it is what it is; enjoy it for what it is or just take what you’re able to enjoy and be happy. Otherwise, why pain yourself with doing things you find time-wasting or onerous, if there’s no one holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it?

As you put it nicely: let the game come to you.

Needless to say, I apologize if I’ve misconstrued you in any of that - it’s not intentional, and I do view this as a discussion rather than a dispute. Despite my obstinacy on the points we’ve raised, I am still learning, and I’m sure I have more to learn from you about this game than you do from me.

That being said, my philosophy I called “diametrically opposed” because it’s essentially this: I come to the game, first and foremost. By “I” I don’t mean just mean me personally, but “I,” a human being, a person with time that is valuable and not to be treated as a joke by people who should know better.

Those are broad strokes, but that’s the gist of it.

So, given your more laid back and honestly more pleasurable approach, you would be inclined to give the developers more of the benefit of the doubt than I would. Since I find time-wasting nonsense one of the most severe and pervasive flaws in every art form, I criticize perhaps more than I should, but I do it because, frankly, I get the enjoyment back, venting my spleen, that I lost having my time wasted.

Plus, I adore this game so much it just pains me to have this awesome content I can’t really enjoy because of nuisances that don’t need to be there. BL2 is a classic and will stand the test of time. Over the past few months I’ve been convinced of that. I’m greedy - I want to devour all of it, just as I do any work of art in any medium, returning again and again, savoring the details, getting into the deep arcana.

You get my drift. So much of the focus of the BL2 community is on raiding, and I’d like to put a lot of time into it to be able to join the discussion. As it stands, though, the way their framework operates makes that an unwise way for me to spend my time, since half of it will not even involve fighting the bosses.

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I always treat things on forums as discussions, not disputes.

But in this discussion I don’t have anything further to add.

Looking forward to talking about other aspects of BL2 (and 3 or 1) when those opportunities arise.
–RoA

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It actually took a year to actually have a guts to post something in the forums, since i didn’t feel i belong. But if you want to learn you need to ask.

Raiding is one of my favorite things in this game. At the start i cannot kill anything, i can only kill Pete on top of the ledge, vorac under the map, gee gate crush, terra behind the rock, the rest with pimp/durp sal only.

Then i started to learn the mechanics, by asking someone, watching clips (i even watched it is slow mo , just to see the mechanics of the fight and tendencies of the boss). Once i got that down, trust me half the battle with the raid boss is won, it will just come down to execution. At the start, you will fail but eventually you will kill it.

My first raid boss kill without cheesing it is bloodsploding pete, once i kill it i feel invincible no one can touch me, one by one raid boss fall down with krieg, then Maya, Sal, Axton, Melee Zero, Gaige then Gun Zero.

I feel i could even kill them with using anything. Although will take long like it took me 45 minutes just to kill Pete with just using WTF with Gaige, yes WTF shield. Or i think i am the only one who did kill raid bosses with melee Maya. Yeah i melee’d voracidous to death but not with zero but with maya. Afk krieg kill with gee and hyperius.

I am one of the few also that love the master gee fight, no one can cheese it especially in coop, and actually needs cooperation and teamwork otherwise the group will be dead.

You are asking about how do we get gee to kneel in the pool? Same thing, need to know he mechanics and timing of gee’s attacks. But what we usually do is once we know that the worms will pop out, we will let master gee to melee us so he will drop in one knee and shoot rockets. All you have to do is healthgate on the hit, most of the time the worm will pop up near gee and he will absorb the pool once you kill it since he will not move.

There are others things i do to make gee absorb the acid like maya phaselock, axton turrets, sals fist, zeros decoy. My grenade slot is alsi the quasar to lure gee in to the acid.

I think you can do it. Once you do, you can come bacm another day to kill it.

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Ok, wow - this is good stuff.

Hope you don’t mind if I ask for just a little more detail. See, I do watch every YouTube video I can find, but none of them are very specific. One guy just said “kill the worm, run over the pool so Gee follows you, if he doesn’t absorb it throw a quasar.” He did it in the video and it worked.

For me? Did not work. And the worst thing is that whenever I’d throw the quasar, a worm would pop up right next to him and the pool and start spamming acid balls at me. The acid pool would instantly grow too large to be absorbed - game over.

So here are my queries:

First, how do you know when a worm is going to pop up? And how do you let Gee melee you? I thought he just chucked his little thing at you; but whenever he does that to me as he’s chasing me, he does not kneel down afterwards to shoot rockets at me. It just seems random whenever he does it.

Second, I guess you could phaselock a worm to drag Gee in, but otherwise it wouldn’t work to drag him back to an acid pool that already exists, right?

I don’t know, I feel like I’ve been doing most of the things I see in the videos and that have been recommended to me, but the damn guy just won’t absorb the motherloving acid but 40-50% of the time.

And to reiterate my complaints - I have tried to practice to the tune of 200 million or so dollars lost, but it take so much time that the enemies keep respawning outside, which is a pain but not too bad, and then I run out of money fast and have to stop and go back and farm Tinder to get more money. I hate it. I don’t hate the fight per se; I hate the nonsense surrounding it.

I want to go and practice Gee right now, in fact. But just knowing I’ll only get a certain amount of reps in, and I’ll have to go farm for money before I go (I only have 20 million or so now) - all of that makes me decline to proceed.

Which means I want to have a really solid plan and really specific things to look for and try out before I go back. Hence the questions.

I wish the YouTube videos were more detailed and technical, but they’re just not. When imitation fails I need things explained to me, and I’m not getting that on YT.

I haven’t even tried the Dragons yet. I know they’ll destroy me and I’m dreading it. But they are my goal because I really, really, really want a Blockade. Damn I wish Hyperius or Gee dropped that shield… Why did it have to be the Dragons!

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. While I have your ear, I need to ask a question I’ve been seeking info. on but can’t find much. If I wanted an easier way to farm Hyperius, would Flakkerhabing work on Maya? I’m kind of preparing to try it and just farmed a Casual Flakker with Torgue grip from a Torgue machine, but haven’t got a good Derp Ahab yet from Gee.

I’ve beaten Hyperius a handful of times legit already, so I’m good there. What I need is to start accumulating seraph crystals. Gee only drops like five or six. Plus Hyperius drops better gear (in my opinion).

I saw someone Flakkerhab Hyperius on YT and it didn’t look terribly easy, but maybe it is?

First to have an easy time, check the exhaust of master gee’s ahab if it is a maliwan exhaust go back to the entrance to reset and check again. Bullet speed of rl with those exhaust is fast and hard to avoid. It is the one with smooth surface (someone can link you a pic).

As for the timing, it varies usually when gee shouts something at you then then the worms will eventually pops out, at op10 worms mught be difficult to kill so i just let gee melee me so he stayed on one knee.

Here is my maya op10 run

I am not a fan of flakker/ahab combo but it will work, best of course with axton due to swap speed.

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Just out of curiosity - are you not a fan because it’s cheesy or because you just don’t like it?

If the former, I can agree with that. I was just thinking to use it to farm, to make each run less of crapshoot.

But if you don’t like it for some other reason - like it’s hard to execute or unreliable - I’d like to know that too before I devote more time to setting it up.

Either way, this is my oath: I will kill Gee legit. I have already cheesed him with the gate a bunch of times, not because I wanted to, but because I’d lost so much money I was going to have to stop, and I needed some, shall we say, positive reinforcement.

But as a rule that’s not my M.O.

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I am okay with it, i pimp/durp with sal. I just don’t like it i guess.

What vault hunter you plan to kill gee with? Maya is good with beehawk, Sal is easy with interfacer, axton lure it with the turrets, zero with the decoy, for gaige 400 stacks of anarchy plus fibber or hail or cc and twister. Melee zero as always looks cool with gee.

For speed kills, what i do is i let the acid is spread so that gee will be damage by it, i survived the fight due to some healing skills, flane of the firehawk and grog nozzle. But it is not for everyon as you might get motion sickness with it. Check this out

You might like this also. Killed it AFK after gee and i absorb one acid.

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Oh my, you make me miss borderlands 2. Had so many plans to do on it but birderlands 3 happened. :sleepy:

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Holy crap, dude - as I understand it, you were using the flame of the fire hawk to health gate with the grog and just have this semi-invincibility at the end of the fight when the acid pool got too large…

That is… brilliant. Now I have to try that. Might actually be the first time I’ve found a use for that shield.

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Yeah and we make it work for all characters. Like Gaige and DT means more novas, i also use shock and aatmrh for more novas. Lol this is the only time DT is useul in Gee fight other times it was a hindrance.

Just need to be close to gee and worms to proc grog healing but not to close since gee’s melee hit can kill you.

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Ok that’s good information. I do remember once I tried to do something vaguely similar - very vaguely similar. Basically I got the acid dot on gee and ran behind the stone to hide.

The acid kept spreading in the room and eventually I started taking damage, so I popped out an just started trying to frantically health gate with my grog, but I died anyway.

So, basically, Gee can kill you in the healthgating phase with his melees - does all of this hold on level 80 as well? And to answer your earlier question I’m playing as Maya, so this is all quite helpful to me.

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