The Saboteur pretty much can't be done, right?

I’ve ran it two nights in a row solo on advanced hardcore using Attikus and got gold the first time with somewhere around 61K points. Second time only got silver but a faster time. I gear him for attack speed and helix build pretty much all health regen and life steal. Take the attack speed helix aug too! (Duh!) Super easy! Just look out for the thrall that shoots the final core on the ledge by the thumper turret. Bastard almost made me fail.

Okay. Freakin finally!!
Just completed it on Advanced Difficulty, with a Golden Medal!!
This is how I did it:
Team of 4: Phoebe, Thorn, Miko, and I was playing ISIC.
Up to the third terminal, everything went as usual, so I’m not gonna get into it. At the third terminal, I positioned myself in front of it, blocking the entrance, and activated my ult, gunning for the tankier and bigger enemies, while Miko healed and kept me alive. While, in the lower part, Phoebe ran around aggroing the enemies and killing them so they wouldn’t attack the terminal from far away. Thorn ran around between the high and low parts just distributing damage and killing the smaller enemies, most of the time she was aiding Phoebe.
By the time we finished the third wave, the terminal had about +30% health. But I think we could’ve finished it with higher health, the problem is I got distracted and let some smaller Varelsi into the circle, so they attacked it.

And that was the last Golden Medal I needed! Now I have Golden Medals in all of my missions :smiley:

PS: I think a Oscar Mike would be quite useful too, either in addition to Thorn, or in her place.

It’s the way the balancing team is balancing for PvP. They’ve shown time and again that they have absolutely no experience with PvE balancing, so every choice they make is a PvP focused one that harms the PvE experience.

That’s the problem. There are too many characters that simply aren’t at all viable for a number of PvE missions. All that happens with The Saboteur is that it brings those failings to the forefront and makes them obvious. The problem isn’t so much with the map, but in what the dreadful balancing has done to characters in PvE. Too many characters in PvE right now just have trouble keeping up.

And there’s too much of a massive divide between top tier characters who can just about get the job done, and then the rest who get absolutely wrecked. Take Ambra, Ghalt, Kleese, Alani (with her DoT and damage speed gear), and Oscar Mike into a match and you may find it quite a bit more manageable. Not easy, mind you, but manageable.

This is why I keep begging Gearbox to separate PvP and PvE balancing and to put a new team on PvE that has PvE balancing experience.

I still think the problem is in the map. Just changing spawn spots for mobs (so that they come in from a few spots on the sides of the hall) would be enough to get rid of most issues.

[quote=“maskerader, post:262, topic:1386648, full:true”]I still think the problem is in the map. Just changing spawn spots for mobs (so that they come in from a few spots on the sides of the hall) would be enough to get rid of most issues.

Agreed. Saboteur should be easier than Experiment because you don’t have to deal with the same point being assaulted multiple times (and it doesn’t even get healed!), but it ends up being way more difficult (at best, it’s on par).

The incredibly spread out (and often in close proximity to the protected node) spawn points make it incredibly difficult to set up a reliable defense. It doesn’t help that those damned Scaven can easily sneak past everyone in a massive melee and completely demolish the node in a matter of seconds.

What might make it easier is providing more turret/trap points. Experiment provides a copious amount of turret points (generally at least 1 for each “lane”) whereas Saboteur provides, I believe, 2 turrets at most for any of the defenses, each of which have heavily distributed spawn locations and that generally coalesce into roughly 4 “lanes” (which means you’ve got each turret covering 2 lanes and easily getting overwhelmed). If they did that, they’d probably also need to add some shards as well, to make them more affordable too, but I don’t really see that as being altogether problematic.

Hey, if anyone is still having trouble, check out my guide linked below. I hope it helps:

I’ll have to retry this mission in a group, then.

Did it solo/normal with OM, and I was disappointed at how easy it was. I’d read all this about how stupid-high the difficulty is. Went in with a cheap gear set, expecting to blow my shards on buildables. Yeah. MIGHT have gone a little overboard on traps and turrets and drones, and STILL came away with thousands of shards, with all gear active, and with barely a scratch on the defense points. And that’s just CR 18, with a OM at lvl 11, and being generally a ‘freakin’ casual’ at any game (read: “I AM A SCRUB”).

Seems that the difficulty has been adjusted since May, and that the majority of stories above are in non-solo runs of it. That’s just weird, though, because it’s ridiculously easy solo. Easier than The Algorithm or Void’s Edge, IMO, to run solo, and I had lots of practice at those two in the beta. I was honestly waiting for something else to come up, when I was running for the ship’s ramp. Like, “Okay, any second now something’s gonna happen. Annyyy second now… Annyyy… Wait, what?! That’s IT?!”

Maybe I’m just cheesing, though, playing through as OM. Can’t help that he’s my favorite, but it might do some good to go Advanced/Hardcore with a character I’m awful playing, like Shayne & Aurox…

So yeah you’re guessing right in that more teammates make it more difficult and that the May update helped with the difficulty. It’s still very failable with teams and the last wave defend can be mishandled with large groups, especially on advanced.

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Keep in mind that rank also affects it. So if you’re playing single player on a lower rank, it’s going to be much easier. Which is my experience, too.

But bring even one more person with a high rank and it starts to scale in very weird, very uncomfortable ways. I’m guessing this is a continuing trend the bigger the team gets? So if you have a team leader with a high rank and a team of 5, things get wonky pretty quick? I know it’s annoying even with a team of two and a high rank.

I’ve had a feeling in my gut that something is horribly, terribly wrong with the scaling in Battleborn for quite some time now. I think I first noticed in The Algorithm just how utterly bonkers it could get. It’s certainly helping (among other things) to impair my enjoyment of the game.

Do you have any reliable evidence of this, or is it purely anecdotal? Because I have a hard time believing that the devs really made command rank a governor of PvE difficulty.

I actually find it very believable, that difficulty scales with command rank.

Consider the mission, Void’s Edge. First few times I played through it, it was RARE to see an Evolved Thrall. Now, I get a couple of them at the very first fight, another one or two inside the door from there, and a few more in Warlord Nix’s arena. A few more past that with the Wolf sentry. And a few at the gate to the final arena.

I’ve been starting to see Bonecrushers in the trash mobs, too.

This is to say, that while it COULD just be that random is random, I’ve got reason to suspect that the quality of enemies is ramping up as I rank up. Never saw a Varelsi Scaven Alpha until around CR 15 or 16, and now I’ll catch a few on the stairs defense in that same mission. Same for the Varelsi Hunters. I get more and more Varelsi Marksmen in the Varelsi Void segment of the Conservator fight, too; whereas it used to be fewer than a handful for the whole thing, now it’s two at a time, and a dozen or so before it’s cleared–I stick to mostly just killing THEM now.

So yeah, totally possible that right now, at a measly Command Rank 18, I’m getting the kid-gloves treatment from the game, and that will ramp up as time goes on. I did Saboteur at CR 15 (it broke me into 16, IIRC) solo/private, and it was disappointingly easy. Take me back there at CR 50 or 60, at this rate, and it might start to break a sweat.

“Working out is important! I worked out!” -Oscar Mike

[quote=“TheRAbbi, post:269, topic:1386648, full:true”]First few times I played through it

How many people were you running it with? You won’t really see evolved at all if you’re solo and won’t see a significant number until there’s at least 3 of you. I’m CR100 (with copious PvE experience) and I can tell you that Bonecrushers never spawn in normal groups (there are some occasions where they are guaranteed spawns) unless you’re in a 5 person group.

Also, the only real RNG to the missions is the challenges. Whenever you see a kill challenge crop up, the game always spawns the enemies necessary for you to win that challenge (which is why you don’t want to kill the teleport spike immediately; it’ll stop those other enemies from spawning and ruin your chances of completing the challenge).

A friend is mine is brand spanking new to the game (CR5) and he hasn’t noticed any significant difference between running with me (CR 100) and running solo. If CR did actually affect anything, there would be a massive difference, especially if, as you claim, there’s noticeable differences as low as 15-16.

If I’m playing with a group of friends I’ll just be Kleese to make sure we beat it, he can defend the point like no other. Set up your rifts, stand inside them, have bouncing mortars that deplete your shield so you can put out a ton of damage and let everyone else do what they do.

  • When people die let them die instead of risking going after them, so make sure you are careful on the start of this map and open everything so you have enough lives
  • Have one person with Kleese to help clear the front, let the other 3 roam and take care of the range threats. Also that one person with Kleese should love it because of the rifts and healing on the battlechair.

[quote=“Derch, post:271, topic:1386648, full:true”]I’ll just be Kleese to make sure we beat it

I do the same thing with Galilea. Desecrate w/ the pull and DoT is a godsend since it gets enemies off of Nova and grouped up all nice and pretty for AoE, especially on that last room.

Mobs types do change on RNG in some packs.

You sure? I tend to notice the same exact packs every time, with the challenges being the only difference.

Uhm, by this time - not exactly) I’m not a big fan of solo runs, need more testing.

I’ve farmed Sentinel so many times I can almost do it by rote. The only possible variation I can think of would be the enemies spawned by the teleport spikes (and only some of them), but the spikes themselves are always the same exact thing.

Also, now that I think about it, you are right. Just look at the first pack of Sentinel and it changes pretty much all the time. I’ve done runs where it’s an evolved and 2 gunners as well as one where it was a beastmaster and 2 brutes (that was a super fun start…).

Certain packs are random, but a vast majority are the exact same spawns every time.

I can’t back up this up with numbers, but it feels like it takes into account the average CR of the whole team. Maybe not for general difficulty, but at least for the Loot Pack Challenges.

@Ganjamira and I were playing The Experiment (Normal) yesterday, two players (with low CR) dropped early and we got an absolute insane spawn at the first wave of the final defense:

Challenge was ‘Kill Minion Bots’ and we got Thralls, Varelsi and Minions all in the first wave with several ‘Major’ Enemies. (several Enforcers, Bonecrushers and I think about 10-15 Ronin).
I’ve never seen such a huge mass of enemies in this mission before, at least not on normal difficulty.

/Edit: I just calculated that the two leaving players brought our average CR from 45,8 to 75, just before said challenge.

Getting back to The Saboteur, I concur that the most spawns in this mission are very ‘stable’, compared to other missions were there’s more RNG involved. (I’m assuming the game uses a wave-budget model similar to ME3 for this)
The most dangerous spawns - in my experience - are at the top of the stairs leading to the final defense point and the fight to secure said point. At both points, there can be an additional challenge, spawning additional enemies. Also, there’s not much room to maneuver at the first spot.

(In a PUG ‘Kill Thralls’ challenge basically means everyone will ignore the Varelsi - including the Scavens :rolling_eyes: - pushing forward in search of thralls only to be swarmered by the summoned ones from the ~5 Beastmasters that spawned one level up.)

CR 18, normal/normal, solo. Evolved Thrall. PLENTY of 'em.