The Under Cover Tree Is Kind Of A Mess In My Opinion

Both the hitman and undercover dont feel like well thought out trees.

Look how skinny and barren hitman is.

Zane hardley has hp a shot from anygun aoe damage clone drone is is better than his hp regen
With just 2% lifesteal.

He doesnt have the hp for it to matter u can try a 2k com and 3k aetifact health and a roughrider and ull probably still have 19k 22k maybe withbgaurdian takents or.multivitamin… That hp comes back with any damage ina second.

The frost lifesteal feels like a waste since the ms speed seems nessasary for damage 5 points in. One point more and u have 2% which is more than enough to sustain me lobbing or rocket launching a m10 cluster of mobs when my shields down.

Nerves of steel feels like an after thought… Its nice. Should be one point and replace that nova crap.

They need to work on zane. He feels severely neglected.

Everyone can do that all characters whats ur point jbow?

Can u monarch down grave ina. Few seconds like fl4k or amara or using anygun like moze. They can do it with purples too.

Ppl are asking for a lil more viablility ur like his gimpness is superb!

Hes bottom tier. In variety of viable builds. Com variety and he has too many unused redundant skills. If theres one thung i noticed about zane community is it Doesnt help itself.

Too many its fine great nothing to be needed here ppl… And they go the hardest.

Whats dufferent than the standard coolcalm playing dirty brainfreeze crowd. Superslide…oh yeah a whole play style about sliding off the map lol.

This actually doesn’t really bother me. If you don’t want to use the clone you can still grab synchronicity, donnybrook, borrowed time and supersonic man and have no regrets. The fact that the rest of the tree is clone centered is ok with me (I just wish the clone, like all action skills, did more damage). Having a tree centered around an action skill isn’t an inherently bad thing to me.

As far as the ongoing discussion of Zane’s DPS goes I didn’t bring it up to start some kind of major discussion on Zane’s viability versus other characters. Honestly I think Zane should do less damage than Flak. Damage is Flak’s “hat” so to speak. DPS isn’t the only metric by which a character is measured.

I brought it up to say that I don’t think adding some DPS to Undercover would break the character. I also don’t think it would break the tree. If you buffed Retaliation (and let’s be honest Retaliation is silly right now, 10% additive gun damage on a character who can stack 200+ fairly easily is basically not even there) to say, stack up to 4 times then that would give you 75% gun damage in the whole tree, if you passed on another potentially useful augment like the Deterrence Field. I think that’s similar to Donnybrook by itself with a Seein’ Dead and Death Follows Close and it’s definitely less than what you can get from VM.

Like I said right now there’s no reason to not use All Rounder. Heck, some of the augments don’t even work if you pick the barrier up. I don’t think putting in some more interesting choices is a bad thing.

If it was graveward I would use violent momentum w/ ASE and one shot on fall?

Just because you don’t like to delve into making synergy of some of his skills does not make him “gimped”.

How in the world is he bottom tier? He has plenty of variety in viable builds, especially with Seein Dead. The coms I use: Seein Dead, Executor, and Anti-Freeze. Sure some could use work but EVERY character has that issue, not just Zane.

The community tried its best long before yall hopped in the forum and we got smacked with the Seein Dead com. Then they doubled effect of Kill Skills, that brought him up to par.

In multiplayer I see EVERY Zane just equip shield every time. I use it as a net and a wall against enemies. You don’t have to worry about getting splash damaged, and your teammates can use it for amp dmg too.

The one thing I can agree with is changing up anoints for Barrier. His best one is the crit, but can be multiple hits on stronger mobs, trash can still be one shotted.

If you don’t like the challenge with Under Cover builds, they are nerfing M10 here shortly and nobody will be complaining anymore. Unless they break stuff like usual,…

I must be misunderstanding this. Why is there a challenge with Under Cover builds? You made it pretty clear you thought the tree was really strong.

It has strong utility. You have to be hitting crit spots consistently. Apparently it is challenging because I am the only one on this topic that uses it I guess?

I rather have Zane slightly overpowered and then toned down, than to be as now where he essentially is only being held together by bandaid solution of a classmod, that obviously should’ve been a capstoneskill at launch.

It honestly makes me upset. Because it’s clear “See’Dead” is more a crutch than anything and it’d be better just to fix “See’in Red”. But instead Gearbox just kept it the same, making any other mods for Zane mediocre in comparison by default. Wo

It’s one thing for a class mod to to be good, but it shouldn’t be mandatory to playing the character. No other Vault Hunter has this issue. Zane virtually has 1 class mod, or struggle harshly with sny other one. That’s terrible game design.

They should just admit they had a little lack of hindsight when creating Zane and move on. They patched up Moze ( she still scales poorly but now works as intended at least in lower Mayhen), Zane had the answer since DLC2 in November and still they do nothing. Thry just patched it over with a mod, abdcslled it a day.

It shouldn’t be that hard
for them to swap the mod and the skill tree, snnointments and kill skills essentially work the same way. Even mockingly naming it similar to the capstone it should’ve been.

IMO undercover and double agent trees are both terrible from the waste down.

Pocket full of grenades is actually a terrible skill to be in Zane’s trees. Don’t get me wrong, this is some of the most powerful nade regen in the game, I used it to make one of my first best builds (nade spam), i love this skill. But it makes no freaking sense why the character who doesn’t use grenades has a nade regen skill. It’s an entire skill that’s support to boom enhance. Just get rid of it. Just make clone eat rockets and give me rocket regen. At least I could use this skill to RPG spam a bit better.

Trick of the light and like a ghost are also bad I don’t have to explain these lolol. Trick of the light should just be active if clone was active, because currently it’s just in a weird state where half the time you get the bonus and the other half the time you don’t. And honestly make it shock again, it should have never became cryo. Like a ghost just needs a complete overhaul. I couldn’t even begin to think of an idea to make this good.

Now let me give my two cents on everything terrible in the green tree because it’s mostly everything.

Adrenaline and hearty stock. These are two trap skills. Adrenaline is okay in early game and I understand it, but at end game with guardian rank topped off unlocked, it actually adds nothing. cooldown/(1+cdr) there’s the formula, test it with topped off active, with and without adrenaline.

Hearty Stock is actually just a trap skill though. Undercover is about keeping full shields, to the point where people were playing rough rider just to bypass having a full shield. I liked to go with sitorak instead, nice and fast charging. Hearty stock actually is anti synergy with the skill tree, confident competence, adrenaline, and CCC. Change this skill to give you 10% boosted shield augments per point. Like power charges, amp, roid, fleet, etc. Make this skill boost those effects.

Stiff upper lip just doesn’t work I’m pretty sure. And even if it did it’s just not a great skill. Low damage reduction has never been good survivability in this game. Life steal is. Plus Zane has TONS of health regen anyway between donnybrook and rise to the occasion. Don’t even know what to change this to.

Speaking of rise to the occasion, it’s the best of the worst skills in this tree. It’s not bad I’ll admit, but it’s really not that great especially compared to salvation or donnybrook. But I guess since it’s the best of the worst you can leave it. Or give us some speed or something with low shields.

Now we’re onto best served cold and futility belt. Best served cold does absolutely nothing. You know what I think you should do to best served cold to EVER make it useful. Give it overkill. Just like remnant or hollow point, best served cold now gets overkill. Why not? This would make it scale well with levels, and given enough damage, it would actually freeze enemies sometimes. This fixes everything wrong with it.

Futility belt is just a bad skill. Once again I’m pretty sure the damage reduction on this is just broken, but do the math. Change every element to kinetic and compare it against your health and shields, you actually lose more than you win. It’s ridiculous. Give us some damage in the skill tree, enemies affected by cryo take 15% bonus damage.

CCC and Refreshments are pretty good lol. CCC is the true capstone of this tree. So we’re gonna talk about nerves of steel. Why the hell doesn’t this skill give crit damage. It is so far down the green tree, give us loads of crit damage. Up to 50% if the skills maxxed out. Yah I’m serious. It’s pretty easy to lose the stacks and have to start over, we deserve a big ole crit bonus to go with that accuracy and handling, it only makes sense.

Finally we have distributed denial. I actually like this capstone a lot and I recommended it to people for CCC builds before seein dead came out. Booster shields and Stop Gap are some of the best combos. But besides those two shields, this basically never works again. When gearbox releases the bee shield this skill will be insane, but until then just go shield by shield and make it work favorably with them. Depleted effects happen when zane’s barrier actually goes down, all of them actually, but the thing is that’s anti synergy with ccc. Zane always wants his barrier active.

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And that translates to my biggest personal problem with the tree: wasting 9 points, when I want to climb to CCC.
5 ready for action, 5 brainfreeze, 1 confident competence and…what now…
As long as Seein Dead in it’s current state exists, its hardly justifiable.

Double agent is pretty good, when it comes to not wasting points.

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Double agent is pretty good when it comes to not wasting points still thats the first half of the tree i think thicc pointed it out well.

Im just… Frustrated at there being so many useless skills. The hitman tree is well streamlined its also the skinniest lacking options tree in the
WHOLE GAME its like so straight foward. Want ur damage? Come here. Waste all ur points in here to reach playing dirty and firerate …do it.

Alot of waste everywhere else. Hardley any diversity. I think ill make a recreate zane post ao we can all just look at eachothers ideas.

Its really bad when we have 1 must have tree for all our damage. Everyone wants to do good damage and should be able to no matter where u go.

Well soon with lvl 60 points clone builds will be able to dip heavy into hitman making cool calm now yesterdays news.

Ppl will just get the 1 tier 3 skills. Hitman up to duration. Clone fun all the way and the seeing dead will make up what’s missing in the hitmans tree points wise for ppl.

We’re still stuck with seeing dead all way u less ur going for one shots with that wotan and discipline mod or infiltrator. Tbh i hate that playstyle. U csnt even get a plaguebearer off while sliding ur crouching at that point. Gotta jump.

And moze is the run n gun person… Lol.
Thinking about our coms makes me sorta mad.

The green tree is most definitely our worst tree full of crap.

Also scroll up two post from me and give thiccfila’s post a gander. That man has ideas

But it is still fun to play with! With all the AOE and grenade buffs you can have Zane hit for 250k per jump on a spring epicenter on M10. And spam the crap out of it. It’s what I run with yo! :joy:

The biggest reason it is there I think for Boom.Enhance. but it has better uses. :upside_down_face:

I was answering to his post, but the refer somewhat fell over. Not a fan of people utilizing click bait titles, because i think they are the bane of informative journalism. But I’m trying to be as objective as possible and to give credit where credit is due.

Another take could be adding two sides to most of the green trees skills.
A defense buff that is active when bubble is not.
An offensive buff that is active if bubble is,too.

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I actually don’t hate Futility Belt. Everything you said about it is true, but it also stops a lot of DoT’s which is worth the trade off in my opinion. There’s nothing worse than getting killed by a DoT right after you’ve finished off all the enemies in the room and can’t second wind.

Then again considering it’s sitting right next to Really Expensive Jacket I don’t think that’s what Gearbox had in mind when they designed it.

I really like Superf34k’s idea of adding two sides to the perks in this tree.

I don’t think futility belt affects dots at all, we’ve done lots of testing with that skill.

Yah I know lol, believe me check the very first video on my youtube, it’s a nade spam build. Of course it is awesome and I say it’s some of the most powerful nade regen in the game haha, becuase it is. But it’s extremely niche and is just bad design in the characters tree who rarely uses grenades imo.

It is funny running into people who say grenades suck on M10 (which most do), but it can be very viable with right perks on your gear.

Love niche though :slight_smile:

I kind of looked for testing on this but didn’t find anything. Can you point me to some? I know you can still get dot’s from environmental hazards but I hadn’t really noticed any from enemy fire while it was active (then again I didn’t try it for that long).

@jbow2020 Thanks but I saw that thread. Doesn’t have any testing that shows FB doesn’t affect DoTs.

In fact the opening post actually says:

" But wait! It has another amazing side effect that I’m not taking into account. It will negate status effects entirely after a kill. That’s good right?"

It will stop the DoT after a kill, however if you received dmg after the kill, it will take another kill to extinguish that if I am correct. It is horrible with elemental projector I know that. And useless with Jacket since it does the job,… kinda.